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Old 12-11-05, 12:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by lauren
Lem, are you veggie or vegan? HUGE difference. Also, do you eat things like gummi bears or are you strict about it? Most people that haven't had serious health problems are eating animal products and just don't realize it.

Also, if you nails need to be clipped every 5 days there is something wrong. I bet you trim so often because they are brittle.
Now that I am in a more rational and friendly mood, I would say 'inbetween' ???
I know....one or the other
But I really, really check EVERYTHING I buy t make sure it is not animal.
My riding gloves are synthetic. I only drink black coffee etc etc....
To each thier own. I was a little harsh and I apologise. Im sure there is
something in my consumption routine that does not go with strict Vegan philosophy.
Im not into making a statement it is just something Ive done since '77 (1977 that is )
'cuz I actuall feel good about it. Anybody on this page is going to be more fit, healthy
and aware than the average shlub just due to being bicycle oriented. Next time I go on
a ride with the local bike shop the young carbon fiber kids who passed me miles ago will be
eating chicken and I will be eating my words

Peace !
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Old 12-11-05, 01:36 PM   #52
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i don't know why people are getting worked up over this dude cutting himself... he's got a FORKED TONGUE fer chrissakes!!! i think he's made up his mind. i think it's pretty cool, although perhaps a little mental illness-y.
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Old 12-11-05, 02:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by andy_is_me
i don't know why people are getting worked up over this dude cutting himself... he's got a FORKED TONGUE fer chrissakes!!! i think he's made up his mind. i think it's pretty cool, although perhaps a little mental illness-y.
I personally get a bit worked up only because many people have, either to be trolls or because they genuinely believed it, suggested the OP had some sort of disturbing mental problem. It is like calling a gender queer someone with a disturbing mental problem. Not only assinine, but socially destructive. The only difference is perhaps that the desire for body modification isn't as much a genetic factor.

Let me give a personal anecdote. I actually was straight edge for quite awhile in my youth. One night my best friend and I went to a tattoo parlor and he got inked. While there I saw a tattoo that was interesting. About a week later I got a tattoo as well. This is something I thought I would never for the life of me get. But you know what? After getting a tattoo I was virtually the same person as before, just with colored skin somewhere.

What I am getting at, is a person can be completely normal, and just happen to have an interest in body modification. I am sure there are some people with mental problems getting body modifications. But people with mental problems usually do not go into the modification bit so much as they slash wrists and do other things.

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They were vikings....that doesnt count !!
If they where Vikings....Are you a 'Biking
The original inhabitants of the area that would become the Swiss cantons were Celtic, rather than Norse. Most viking plundering of Britain took place by Norwegians, while the Swedes went east and south into Finland and Russia. (Parts of Finland actually speak Swedish as the main tongue, though they do so without the grave accent, which gives Swedish and to a greater extent, Norwegian, their singsong characteristic.)
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Old 12-11-05, 02:24 PM   #54
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I personally think it's stupid. Well, at least it has really deep, symbolic meaning... oh, wait...
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Old 12-11-05, 02:28 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lauren
Lem, are you veggie or vegan? HUGE difference. Also, do you eat things like gummi bears or are you strict about it? Most people that haven't had serious health problems are eating animal products and just don't realize it.

Also, if you nails need to be clipped every 5 days there is something wrong. I bet you trim so often because they are brittle.
Honestly, I do not think there is any statistical information to back this claim up. Who are these people that are eating
animal products and do not realize it? Are you suggesting that Vegans really are not aware of what an animal product is? It is really not that hard to avoid animal product ingestion completely. Perhaps for the first few years a Vegan will learn about new substances they did not know were animal derived, but the list is not all that extensive.

With this assumption that most long term Vegans actually are more aware about animal products than is suggested, most studies that I am aware of point to much lower rates of things like osteoporosis. Despite popular belief, it is very easy
to obtain adequate calcium, iron, and protein in a Vegan diet. Protein is in fact one of the most misunderstood objects in popular culture. The studies I referenced, if I recall correctly, suggested that it was actually the abundence of protein in things like milk that actually cause it to be less productive for calcium gain. I should really find the paper...

There is one vitamin, to my knowledge, that is NOT adequately obtained in a Vegan diet. That is B12. A simple suppliment, or enriched nutriontal yeast usually does the trick.

Anyway I feel like I have hijaked this thread so think my time here is done.
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Old 12-11-05, 03:10 PM   #56
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What is a forked tongue?
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Old 12-11-05, 03:16 PM   #57
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What is a forked tongue?
Look at the OP's avatar.
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Old 12-11-05, 06:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Satyr
It is like calling a gender queer someone with a disturbing mental problem. Not only assinine, but socially destructive. The only difference is perhaps that the desire for body modification isn't as much a genetic factor.
I think you are blurring the lines a little too far here.

A "gender queer", by which I assume you mean someone with Gender Identity Disorder, does have a mental problem. It is a physical and mental property/problem where the mind and body are not in sync. Truly a female in a male's body, or vice versa. I don't think it is asinine. It is usually a very internal problem and becomes "socially destructive" when it becomes an external problem and is discovered by people who think it is disturbing.

Disturbing is really in the eye of the beholder.

Body modification, in and of itself, is not a 'genetic' factor anymore so that I think GID is a genetic issue. I think mental illness (and I use the term loosely) is not always genetic. If it were to be genetic then it would have to be something that can be passed from generation to generation regardless of social upbringing (Nature vs Nurture).

GID is a problem regardless of Nurture. One can have the most 'boyish' upbringing of GI Joes and Karate Matches in the backyard, but still feel like a girl inside.

A Body Modification advocate, usually has other social problems and they aren't internal ones. Maybe the parents weren't around enough, maybe they didn't fit in in school, who knows. Yes, body modifications have been done for a very long time. Ancient tribes of people have done it and many tribes still do. Such as the plates in the lip or rings around the neck. However, these are not done as a "counter-culture" they are done as a culture with specific and direct meaning and significance. They aren't done to prove that they are unique, different, cool, or some other arbitrary crap.
That's the real problem. Most people who are into Body Modification past a woman's ear piercings (which, too, are also quite positive symbolism and cultural backings in American and many Western European countries), they feel that they are doing this to prove how different they are. Then 20 years down the road when their ears are sagging awkwardly, their face is full of dots, and they have to wear long sleeves and long pants to fit in with the rest of the world they regret being a stupid kid.

What body modification artist do you feel is "successful" or would consider themselves successful? I say "you feel" because everyone has their own definition of success. To some, it's a dollar amount (such as Millionaire). To others, it's a title (such as "Director", "CEO", "President" (company or government), Manager, Regional Parter, etc.). To still others, it's a personal feeling (such as knowing they are a good parent or no longer feeling a need to strive for something more).

I'm willing to bet you'll have a hard time finding someone that is successful who does body mods. Largely because most people's personal feelings of success come from the first two situations (money/power) and
it is much harder to achieve large sums of money or power when acting on behalf of a counter culture.

Now I come back to GID. I'm sure there are people with GID that have become a success. "Fixing" themselves to be comfortable with who they are can give them the confidence to climb the ladder of their choice. Again, since GID is much more of an internal problem, most who have it do not admit it publically and therefore their successfulness as a person with GID is usually not known. However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone with GID would be able to name a few names of people who have it and are successful.
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Old 12-12-05, 11:16 AM   #59
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oh god, and you're doing this in honolulu where 90% of the people won't even understand wtf you're trying to get at.

not to mention, last I checked all the sxe hxc kids I knew there are drunks now (i'm not counting jarheads or G.I.'s that attempt to assimilate the "scene" around there). why don't you do this in SLC? I think you would get more desirable feedback

As for body mutilation, to each his/her own. I was into it when I was like 13 years old, depressed, suicidal, a closet ****, and a wannabe goth, but I know there are people who like to scar their bodies. As long as they're not cutting me up, I don't mind
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Old 12-12-05, 03:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lauren
Look at pro athletes, and I bet you won't see any veggies/vegans.
You just made yourself sound very silly there.
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Old 12-12-05, 03:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by gonesh9
You just made yourself sound very silly there.
Is there a nice, long list you forgot to post? I've got nothing against vegans, but most pro athletes need readily available sources of protein, which means animal protein, unless the dude is willing to spend hundreds of extra dollars per week on supplements for stuff he'd be getting if he just ate a chicken breast or two. Seriously, I know there's probably some vegan body-builder with a website somewhere selling his products, but this is atypical, because veganism is a highly impractical and expensive alternative to eating sensibly.
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Old 12-12-05, 05:31 PM   #62
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There's obviously still a lot of common myths about veg*nism going around....which isn't too surprising as the meat/dairy industries lobby extremely hard to make our citizens believe you need animal protein to succeed.

Here's a few very incomplete lists of some famous pro veg athletes. Funny the first one doesn't even mention some people like Carl Lewis, a proud vegan that certainly proved that a plant-based diet can give you all you need, or Scott Jurek, ultra-marathon world record holder...
Veg Athletes (short list)
Another list

Here's an article written by Carl Lewis:
Carl Lewis on Being Vegan
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Old 12-12-05, 05:44 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by gonesh9
There's obviously still a lot of common myths about veg*nism going around....which isn't too surprising as the meat/dairy industries lobby extremely hard to make our citizens believe you need animal protein to succeed.

Here's a few very incomplete lists of some famous pro veg athletes. Funny the first one doesn't even mention some people like Carl Lewis, a proud vegan that certainly proved that a plant-based diet can give you all you need, or Scott Jurek, ultra-marathon world record holder...
Veg Athletes (short list)
Another list

Here's an article written by Carl Lewis:
Carl Lewis on Being Vegan
How many different supplements do you take, gonesh? How expensive are they?
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Old 12-12-05, 05:50 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by lauren
Look at pro athletes, and I bet you won't see any veggies/vegans.
i believe mike pigg, perhaps the winningest triathlete ever, is vegan.

as for slicing yourself/getting heavily tattooed being associated with mental illness... i think to some small degree they are. if not mental illness, at least some sort of mental fukcedupedness. this coming from a guy with many tattoos, some unhideable (hands, for example...)


edit: oops... dave scott. i should really read previous posts before i open my big yap.

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Old 12-12-05, 06:15 PM   #65
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Until I see some proof that being vegan actually gives you an advantage (and doesn't just occasionally not disadvantage you), it's not even something I would consider.

Meat is tasty. Carving yourself is stupid. I take as perfect care of my body as I can manage.
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Old 12-12-05, 06:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by krispistoferson
How many different supplements do you take, gonesh? How expensive are they?
The only supplement I take daily is B-12, which is about $6.00 a month. If I've put in a lot of hours on the bike, running, playing soccer, etc., I'll have a protein shake made from various plant-based sources. This is about $20 for around 50 servings, which makes it out to about 40 cents a serving.

The biggest myth I've noticed is that vegans don't get as much protein from their normal meals as non-vegans. Although there are a bunch of dumbass junk food vegans out there, my normal meal includes just as much or more complete protein as an omnivore's normal meal. One serving of Wite Wave seitan has 20g protein.... and there's 3.5 servings per package, which I usually split with my girlfriend. Which means I get 35g protein just from seitan... add the pasta, nuts, sauce, and veggies, and my dinner has over 50g protein. My bean/rice/veggie burrito is even better. On top of the protein issue, my energy is higher because I'm not consuming food that takes all my energy to digest.

Now I'm no pro athlete, but I do know from first hand experience that veganism can be quite easy and practical for an athlete.
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Old 12-12-05, 09:25 PM   #67
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uh.. the split tongue is probably just for luvin'.
Somehow I doubt that.
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Old 12-12-05, 09:56 PM   #68
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I love the assumptions poster Lauren has made in this thread. Although my reasons for being vegan have nothing to do with health (however, I am significantly healthier than I was when I ate meat and dairy), veganism is definitely extremely healthy when done right. Someone eating a well-balanced vegan diet rich in protein, iron, calcium, all vitamins (espcially B12) would overall be as healthy or likely healthier than the same person eating a well-balanced diet including meat and dairy. There have been vegan weightlifters, swimmers, divers, pole vaulters, runners, etc, etc placing silver and bronze in Olympic events for decades. I'm not what you'd call athletic, but I sprint, bike (obviously), and can play baseball and hockey as well as anyone I know. If you want to talk supplements, I take one and only one: B12 complex vitamin. Derived from seaweed or something of that sort. I gave blood two weeks ago and everything was more than sufficient as far as iron, protein, and B vitamins go.

Either way, whether you can run a mile in four minutes or not shouldn't really be of more concern than the well-being of our planet and its eco-systems, which a vegan diet is unquestionably MUCH less harmful to than one which includes animal products. Anyone who claims to care about the environment yet maintains a diet which supports one of, if not the single largest perpatrator of ecological damage is utterly full of ****.


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why don't you do this in SLC? I think you would get more desirable feedback
I think SLC kids are too busy listening to awful Toughguy Mosh Metal and ghetto stomping people who "disrespect" their crews to care about having any valid moral or ethical standards. SLC has and always will be a joke.
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Old 12-12-05, 10:32 PM   #69
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Vegans place second and third to omnivores according to your post.
There are also a far smaller number of vegans invovled in Olympic sports, as there are a small number of vegans in existence compared to those who consume animal products. I'm sure if there were more vegans involved in Olympic sports, there would be some with gold medals as well. Hope that simple math didn't slip past you.


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The planet is just gonna become a big ball of fire one day anyways, so I'd prefer to support ranchers that are alive today.
What a great attitude. I'm sure with that kind of mindset, we'll be long dead and gone aeons before the sun explodes and engulfs the solar system in its entirety.


Quote:
Most of your anti meat examples are people who eat too much. In the right amount it's good for you.
My only example cited someone who ate a well-balanced diet. Not too much, not too little. Eating meat in any amount can be bad for you because of the way our bodies process meat (mostly effects on the colon and lower digestive system). Whether this has anything to do with the antibiotics and other human-harming chemicals pumped into animals in factory farms, I don't know, but either way it causes lots of (often unnoticed) problems for the average person. User Satyr pointed out one or two of these previously. There's a whole list of problems caused by consumption of meat in both healthy and unhealthy diets. Do a little research online and I'm sure you'll unearth some more. There have also been various scientific studies throughout the past century showing that out of a group of people with similar exercise, dietary variation, and overall lifestyle and health, those with vegan and vegetarian diets live overwhelmingly longer than those who had animal products as part of their diet.
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Old 12-13-05, 12:08 AM   #70
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Some quick points:
1. I've been talking of Veganism, not vegetarianism,(big difference,) that website kind of lumped them all in the same category. If you took all the guys who had "Vegan" after their name, it comprises a VERY short list, which just goes to prove my point.

2. Yes, I know that the meat industry is dirty, corrupt, and that people eat too much in the developed nations, to the detriment of their health. HOWEVER, Vegans tend to propagandise their way of life by making themselves out to be the idyllic Adam & Eve-style hunter gatherers, when in truth they are still relying on a complex chain of processed food-nutritional yeast powder, vitamin supplements and protein enriched soymilk don't come from magical unicorns, either. Despite all romantisation to the contrary, virtually ANY Stone Age person will eat the flesh of an animal given the opportunity. If you find it immoral to kill an animal, say so, but don't blow smoke about how you pick your food out of the non-industrial garden of eden, 'cuz that's bull.

3.I don't find the OP to be representative of most of the vegans I've ever known, so I'm not using someone who might be a little effed in the head as a strawman against veganism in general, as some already have.

4. I think the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle in our attitudes towards eating meat. I tend to agree with the Asian sentiment of meat, poultry and fish as a condiment, with vegetables making up the bulk of one's diet. This tends to avoid both unhealthy extremes, so you're not a colon impacted fat @ss, nor are you a grey faced vitamin-gobbler.

5."Veganism" is, to me, is really a Trojan Horse. Obviously, first and foremost, Vegans find the eating of meat to be immoral, which is fine. For some reason, though, there must be some embarrassment that comes with this ethical stance, because most of them seem to want to lie about health benefits that simply don't materialize in the real world. Lauren made a great point in that, if it was such a distinct advantage for an athlete, they would have long since ALL adopted this diet. That hasn't happened. Feel the way you feel about killing animals, but don't try to stretch the truth in support of "animal rights," or whatever.

6.This is the last point, and to me the most important. I've known more than a few Vegans who were against feeding their dogs and cats anything but vegetables. While the Vegan diet can technically be adopted by a relatively sedentary human without many ill effects, you can literally kill animals that have evolved over millions of years to be predators. Also, I've known quite a few who didn't seem to find it important whether their children had their immunization shots, to the point where the big, bad government had to step in. I don't think I need to point out the idiocy in this. The point: If you want to be a Vegan, more power to you, but don't make your animals and children suffer for what amounts to a moral stance that looks a lot better on paper than it does in practice.

7. The "Meat Industry" didn't pay me to say any of this.
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Old 12-13-05, 10:44 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren
You can't be a vegan without eating lots of processed foods.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard in a while. My diet consists of much fewer processed foods than most people I know.

Carl Lewis earned 9 gold medals, broke 2 world records, and was named Olympic Athlete of the Century. It's true that there aren't comparitively many vegans in the pro/olympic level, but snickersnicker made a good point that vegans make up a very small portion of our general population.

Anyways, back on topic- i dig self expression in the form of body art.
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Old 12-13-05, 10:50 AM   #72
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Hmm, that Carl Lewis article was pretty good. That was Carl Lewis, right? I don't feel like double-checking. One (other) question, tho. When he mentions using lemon juice to flavor his food, does he lay off of salt cuz it's the Vegan thing to do or just cuz it's not good for you in excess? Most NaCl is obtained from the Earth, rather than animals, I believe.

As far as this thread goes, it seems to have deteriorated into the equivalent of deaf people arguing out loud(without using sign language). In other words, I doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else that their view is the "right" one because they've already made up their minds or they already agree. Just my opinion, of course.

Carry on. At least it's entertaining....
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Old 12-13-05, 11:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Karldar
Just my opinion, of course.
Your opinion is wrong! I'll prove it to you...
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Old 12-13-05, 11:18 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by gonesh9
Carl Lewis earned 9 gold medals, broke 2 world records, and was named Olympic Athlete of the Century. It's true that there aren't comparitively many vegans in the pro/olympic level, but snickersnicker made a good point that vegans make up a very small portion of our general population.
Nobody said that being a Vegan puts you at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to athletics. However, what has been said is that it does not give you a distinct advantage. Sure, 1 guy broke a bunch of records. Maybe a few others took gold in other catagories as well. But if their performance was truely aided by the fact that they were vegan, then all athletes with any hope of ever turning pro would be switching to veganism for the advantage.

The reason vegans make up such a small portion of the general population is because there is no realized physical benefit to being vegan. Yes, health-wise Veganism is healthier than McBurgerism. However, it is not health-wise greater than a balanced diet. I'm not saying that a balanced diet is greater either. What I'm saying is that the benefits of veganism are slim to none when compared to eating a proper, balanced, and maintained diet.
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Old 12-13-05, 12:54 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by lauren
If being vegan was better, then they would be winning and everyone would be vegan. I hope that simple logic doesn't slip past you AGAIN.
Not everyone is open to the idea of being vegan, or the idea that a vegan diet is superior than an omnivorous diet. You're an example. Thus, there will never come a time when everyone in the world is vegan, or even open to the idea of it. Your logic (lack thereof) is childish and oversimplified.


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The lack of essential amino acids has effected your brain.
http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0105a.htm
http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=105

Like I said, do a little research. Although I generally disagree with PETA on a lot of things, they're helpful when it comes to health facts relating to veg[etari]anism.


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Or is it because more self centered people become veggies/vegans to begin with? All the veggies I have known have had deep emotional problems (with one possible exception). I now avoid them as roommates and friends. I'm happier that way, and hopefully the veggies cohabitating turns into group therapy sessions that helps them too.
Generalisations rule. While we're at it, I could spout out multi-page lists of my generalisations about Christians, women, Jews, the Scottish, Neocons, etc. But I know they're simply generalisations that I don't really believe in...you seem to take the ones you've made far too seriously for your own good.

Everything I make a conscious decision to spend my money on or support is for the benefit of the disadvantaged and cast-aside. I buy my clothing from American Apparel because they pay fantastic wages (average of $12.50 an hour for sewers/cutters/other floorpeople) and refuse to outsource any of their positions or compromise their moral and ethical standards in the name of saving money. If I were self-centred, I would have no problem buying attire from Wal-Mart assembled in sweatshops by people a third of my age...but that's not the case. I don't own a car (and don't intend to, unless I end up teaching at a school that isn't within biking/walking distance), and when I do need to get somewhere I can't on bike, I carpool or take a city bus. If I wanted to indulge myself and didn't give a toss for the environment or anything of that sort, I'm sure I could roll deep in a Hummer or some other gas-guzzling monstrosity. The fact that I'm taking a job teaching, although I could get a higher-paying job programming computers and databases, is another example of how I'm anything but self-centred. You could argue that I'm doing all this to maintain a Holier-Than-Thou attitude, but I don't wear my ethics on my sleeve. Even if I did, who would I have to look up to me? One of my friends is veg[etari]an. Nearly all of my friends do drugs, drink, or smoke. Only one doesn't own a car. If I were trying to pick up some street cred, I'm definitely in the wrong town. Maybe a move to Chappel Hill or Portland or RVA or Gainesville is in order.


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No sense arguing further with someone who eats a diet that compromises their mental health. Snicker and the original poster are great examples.
Resorting to petty personal attacks will get you nowhere. I don't have any tattoos, piercings (not even my ears); I don't dress like a Gutter Punk; I fit the exact opposite image of the poster of this thread. Make your assumptions all you want, but they're wrong and completely without basis in anything other than your deluded presumptuousness. Don't try to disguise your lack of ability to hold a coherent argument with my "compromised mental health." It's a copout and you know it.
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