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Old 03-28-06, 08:21 PM   #1
curt in denver
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Advertising ethics?

I bought a pair of shifters off E-bay advertised as Ultegra, when they arrived they turned out to be 600's. I know the 600's are the old Ultegra but I would not have bid on shifters that are old enough to be 600's. I will be returning them as the seller has a return policy but IMO this was false advertising. What do you think?
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Old 03-29-06, 06:17 AM   #2
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I'd send 'em back. Ultegra is the new 600, pink is the new black, rattle, rattle, rattle. It ain't the same thing! Sure it was false advertising. The seller's item wasn't worth as much as the newer version so he/she obviously just "upgraded" to Ultegra in a ploy to net a higher final bid.

Does it sound like I've encountered this crap before?
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Old 03-29-06, 08:25 AM   #3
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That's pretty bad, I would raise a flag with ebay that he was selling 600, not Ultegra, and explain the differences. That way they can block off any negatives coming your way from the seller.


Did he provide pictures of the brifters on the auction? If he posted Ultegra brifters, then if you want to be a prick about it, you can demand he give you a pair of Ultegra brifters, since he did engage in a binding contract, otherwise he should return payment, plus reimburse the cost of you sending the incorrect item back (or better yet, he arranges for you to drop it off at a fedex/ups drop and they ship it back directly billed to him).
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Old 03-29-06, 11:14 AM   #4
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He posted pics of the actual shifters, but not clear enough to see the details or the 600 brand.
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Old 03-29-06, 11:21 AM   #5
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The previous-generation 600EX was all-silver and went up to 7-speed. Ultrega had a dark gray painted finish and started at 7-speed. When in doubt, ask for part#. The 600EX was SL-6207 and Ultegra started at SL-6400 I think...
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Old 03-29-06, 01:27 PM   #6
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Howdy folks

I sold the "Ultegra" shifters to Curt. I find it funny that you all want to say I was trying to mislead this guy. 600 is Ultegra and Ultegra is 600 up until 1998 when they changed from 8 speeds to 9. So, based on that, calling them Ultegra is not incorrect information.

What the buyer was looking for is 8 speed STI of the Ultegra level. Thats what he got. Thats what I sold. Try to find me some Ultegra only (post '98, after they dropped the 600 moniker) 8 speed shifters and I will refund all your money AND you can keep the shifters I sent you. Good luck.

All that said, feel free to return the shifters. I feel you got a great deal on them and would love to relist them. I will however not refund any shipping charges whatsoever since I made no mistakes.

All of you who stated I mislead the poor buyer please read this:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano.html#ultegra

Here is some info from that page. Please take special note of the second sentence of the second paragraph below.

Ultegra ("ULTimate" + "IntEGRity") is the second highest level "road" group. The Ultegra name was added as a suffix to 600 when 7-speeds (and the gray paint finish) came in in the early '90s. For the 1998 model year, Ultegra became a 9-speed group, and the 600 designation was retired.



600 Became 600EX when indexing was introduced, 600 Ultegra (Gray finish) when 7-speed added. When it became an 8-speed group, the 600 designation still existed, but it was usually referred to as just "Ultegra". With the '98 model year, 9-speeds came in and the "600" designation was completely dropped from Ultegra.

Thanks guys.
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Old 03-29-06, 03:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalseAdvertiser
I sold the "Ultegra" shifters to Curt. I find it funny that you all want to say I was trying to mislead this guy. 600 is Ultegra and Ultegra is 600 up until 1998 when they changed from 8 speeds to 9. So, based on that, calling them Ultegra is not incorrect information.

What the buyer was looking for is 8 speed STI of the Ultegra level. Thats what he got. Thats what I sold. Try to find me some Ultegra only (post '98, after they dropped the 600 moniker) 8 speed shifters and I will refund all your money AND you can keep the shifters I sent you. Good luck.

All that said, feel free to return the shifters. I feel you got a great deal on them and would love to relist them. I will however not refund any shipping charges whatsoever since I made no mistakes.

All of you who stated I mislead the poor buyer please read this:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano.html#ultegra

Here is some info from that page. Please take special note of the second sentence of the second paragraph below.

Ultegra ("ULTimate" + "IntEGRity") is the second highest level "road" group. The Ultegra name was added as a suffix to 600 when 7-speeds (and the gray paint finish) came in in the early '90s. For the 1998 model year, Ultegra became a 9-speed group, and the 600 designation was retired.



600 Became 600EX when indexing was introduced, 600 Ultegra (Gray finish) when 7-speed added. When it became an 8-speed group, the 600 designation still existed, but it was usually referred to as just "Ultegra". With the '98 model year, 9-speeds came in and the "600" designation was completely dropped from Ultegra.

Thanks guys.
You are correct, in a letter of the law sense. However I still say you should have included the 600 in the description. You obviously know there is a difference. Average price of 600 stuff is much less than Real ultegra stuff.
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Old 03-29-06, 03:23 PM   #8
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i would feel mislead as well - even if the fine print does check out.
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Old 03-29-06, 03:36 PM   #9
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oh boy.

Curt, answer me this:

Did you need 8 or 9 speed shifters??

There is NO OTHER OPTION for 8 speed Ultegra level STI levers.

I described them as everybody calls them, including the box they came in. I also listed that they were 8 speed shifters.

If you wanted newer shifters ("Ultegra-only and post 1998"), you'd have to upgrade your entire system to go along with it.

It seems to me you (and maybe a couple people here) are thoroughly confused as to what you wanted, what the older stuff was called, what options exist for 8 speed, and what will work on your bike.

Admit that you are not knowledgable about this topic and move on.

As Ive said before, please send them back if youre not happy.

Last edited by FalseAdvertiser; 03-29-06 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 03-29-06, 03:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curt in denver
You are correct, in a letter of the law sense. However I still say you should have included the 600 in the description. You obviously know there is a difference. Average price of 600 stuff is much less than Real ultegra stuff.

man, this forum is slow (maybe in more ways than one).


Real Ultegra??? Ok, so mine was fake Ultegra. I'll have to call Shimano and tell them to take "Ultegra" off of their boxes from 8 years ago because now that the new Ultegra is out the old stuff is fake.

Real Ultegra??? Do you mean 9 speed??? Do you mean 10 speed??? Of course its more expensive, silly. Its much newer and more desirable.

Correct in the letter of the law? Isnt that what matters? I can honestly say, I had absolutely no intentions of decieving anyone. In fact, that is the third pair of those exact shifters I have sold in the last 6 months. All with the same description. Hmmmm. Youre a senior member here, but obviously havent been riding bikes very long.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:09 PM   #11
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Funny how the ebay seller found this specific thread.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:11 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by operator
Funny how the ebay seller found this specific thread.

yes, its super hilarious since the buyer emailed it to me. :|
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Old 03-29-06, 04:17 PM   #13
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I'm siding with the ebay seller on this one.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalseAdvertiser
oh boy.

Curt, answer me this:

Did you need 8 or 9 speed shifters??

There is NO OTHER OPTION for 8 speed Ultegra level STI levers.

I described them as everybody calls them, including the box they came in. I also listed that they were 8 speed shifters.

If you wanted newer shifters ("Ultegra-only and post 1998"), you'd have to upgrade your entire system to go along with it.

It seems to me you (and maybe a couple people here) are thoroughly confused as to what you wanted, what the older stuff was called, what options exist for 8 speed, and what will work on your bike.

Admit that you are not knowledgable about this topic and move on.


As Ive said before, please send them back if youre not happy.
I will admit i'm not very knowledgable if you admit you left out the 600 in the description on purpose.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:21 PM   #15
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i would have just put "ulterga 600" in the description. it's only three extra keystrokes and would have avoided any confusion completely. but hey, that's just me.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:22 PM   #16
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post a link to the listing so we can see for ourselves...
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Old 03-29-06, 04:32 PM   #17
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I think I'm with the seller on this one too. He's not wrong to refer to them as 'Ultegra' shifters. Strictly speaking they're 600 Ultegra, but I don't see that omitting the '600' equates to false advertising. You'd have to be searching for 9 speed shifters to get them without the 600 designation. If you were looking for shifters new enough to be labelled just 'Ultegra', then unless he failed to mention that they were 8-speed, you probably just bought the wrong thing.

If you're looking for 8-speed STI Ultegra shifters, that's what you got. You can call 'em 600, or 600 Ultegra, or Ultegra 600, or just Ultegra - really doesn't matter. They're the same thing.
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Old 03-29-06, 04:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curt in denver
I will admit i'm not very knowledgable if you admit you left out the 600 in the description on purpose.

Sorry, no can do. Didnt even once cross my mind and thats the honest truth. If theres anything I pride myself on its my trustworthiness.

Thats what we called it: ULTEGRA.

Im honestly not sure what you were expecting. You saw the picture. Are you bummed that it says 600 on it?? Are you bummed it doesnt look like the latest generation Ultegra? Did you buy a shifter with the wrong amount of speeds? Im confused.

Its obvious you have some perception in your mind as to what Ultegra shifters are. What that is I dont know. When I think of Ultegra shifters it can be 8 speed STI, 9 speed STI, 10 speed STI or even 7 speed down tube shifters. Ultegra shifters are all those things. Maybe you thought Ultegra meant 10 speed. I dont know.

Last edited by FalseAdvertiser; 03-29-06 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 03-29-06, 05:05 PM   #19
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Mostly I'm bummed because there so old and beat up! I took them to my LBS and the mechanic said I'd be better off keeping the newer Sora than putting on old 600. I won't apologize for feeling misled, but if others feel you did nothing wrong I will withdraw my public complaint and apologize for wasting your time.
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Old 03-29-06, 05:09 PM   #20
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ok. New information.

The buyer just informed me he needed these:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=5144

Which are 9 speed. So............. the seller didnt do his homework, told me atleast twice I deceived him intentionally, and wanted me to compensate him for that.

Thanks for the waste of time. Relist them on ebay and you might even make a few bucks as I felt they sold a little cheap. If you want to send me a few bucks to compensate me for my time and headache, feel free.

Last edited by FalseAdvertiser; 03-29-06 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 03-29-06, 05:19 PM   #21
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An E-Bay auction is for adults. Look at the photos. E-mail detailed questions. Bid. Win. Be happy. Or don't be happy.

Shimano 600 and Shimano Ultegra are the EXACT same stuff. Some of my components have BOTH names stamped on the part. And, I have some parts that are identical that use the 600 name, while the other part uses the Ultegra name. Regardless of name, they are the best "non-pro" level stuff Shimano makes...always comparable to the best products from Campy or SunTour.

Sometimes I've been unhappy with something I bought on E-Bay. The unhappiness is the result of my not looking at the photos closely enough, or did not ask the right question. My fault, not the seller's fault.

E-Bay: not for crybabies.
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Old 03-29-06, 05:45 PM   #22
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Ok! My bad I will eat crow and say sorry for the accusation. The right shifter doe's not index by the way and the left doe's not unspool. This is a quote from the mechanic.
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Old 03-29-06, 05:58 PM   #23
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This is my last post.

Bike shop mechanics love to put down bike parts purchased on ebay. Or any part you bought elsewhere for that matter. Its a threat to his job and the shop, right? IMO, I feel if you cant do the mechanical work yourself, or buy bike parts appropriately on your own, by all means, use your local bike shop's knowledge and buy parts from them. It'll probably be a wash in the long run with expenses as usually they'll help you out with installations and guide you with your purchases so you dont buy $80 8 speed shifters for a 9 speed bike.

Send the shifters back. I will refund your money.

Happy trails.
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Old 03-29-06, 08:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalseAdvertiser
This is my last post.

Bike shop mechanics love to put down bike parts purchased on ebay. Or any part you bought elsewhere for that matter. Its a threat to his job and the shop, right? IMO, I feel if you cant do the mechanical work yourself, or buy bike parts appropriately on your own, by all means, use your local bike shop's knowledge and buy parts from them. It'll probably be a wash in the long run with expenses as usually they'll help you out with installations and guide you with your purchases so you dont buy $80 8 speed shifters for a 9 speed bike.

Send the shifters back. I will refund your money.

Happy trails.
Ok done issue, Shifters were for an 8 speed bike(redline conquest)
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Old 03-30-06, 03:32 AM   #25
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Well I think this worked out nicely.
Better than a negative feedback war, especially if the seller is a jerk and won't give a refund. I think the sellers done alright in this case. Although for future reference I would've put ultegra 600 on the auction title.
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