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Old 02-21-07, 03:22 PM   #1
goldener
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is this legal? (job question)

here is an excerpt from a job lsiting that i hope to get, but it sounds a little shifty, like it might run afoul of some discrimination laws.. the last two items on the list that is.


Quote:
Pay $10-$15 an hour, depending on experience, physical fitness, and attitude.

ps. it's for a land management/natural resources job..it's outside.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:25 PM   #2
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Are you physically fit with a good attitude? If so, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:27 PM   #3
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I doubt it runs afoul of any laws. I'm not an employment lawyer though.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:30 PM   #4
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Well, attitude is something they'll evaluate during the interview. Suprising they say it like that, but of course that's part of the hiring process; how could it not be?? So I doubt that would be illegal. Physical fitness? Don't know if that one's legit in the civilian world. Is there some standard against which everyone can be relatively measured? That would be my guess for legality. But as has been noted, I'm not an employment lawyer, either.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden graham
here is an excerpt from a job lsiting that i hope to get, but it sounds a little shifty, like it might run afoul of some discrimination laws.. the last two items on the list that is.





ps. it's for a land management/natural resources job..it's outside.
I don't see anything wrong with it. I think they just want people to know what to expect and get the right candidates.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:32 PM   #6
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You lucky bastad..............sounds like a porn tryout! Jeeeez I am so jealous!
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Old 02-21-07, 03:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msheron
You lucky bastad..............sounds like a porn tryout! Jeeeez I am so jealous!
I don't think I would have the right attitude to do porn.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:43 PM   #8
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I don't think I would have the right attitude to do porn.
I would
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Old 02-21-07, 03:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msheron
You lucky bastad..............sounds like a porn tryout! Jeeeez I am so jealous!
5 years of college and $160,000 later that is what jobs are open to me - $10-15/hr pay


i made 12/hr as a bike mechanic in high school..

yea...it's not about the money... I do it for the "love"...my exorbitant loans will have to be paid in "love" then

sigh..what did socrates(?) say about your vocation
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Old 02-21-07, 03:48 PM   #10
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instead of writing: Pay $10-$15 an hour, depending on experience, physical fitness, and attitude.

they should have wrote: Pay $10-$15 an hour depending on experience. Applicant must be physically fit and have a positive attitude.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:51 PM   #11
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i don't see how it is legal to pay 2 of the same employees a different wage (from $10-15/hr.) for doing the exact same job based on "attitude" not actual performance? and physical fitness? someone who is more fit than someone else recieves a higher wage than someone who isn't as fit, but still perfectly competent/capable of doing the job?

arrgh. whatever..**** work
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Old 02-21-07, 04:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden graham
i don't see how it is legal to pay 2 of the same employees a different wage (from $10-15/hr.) for doing the exact same job based on "attitude" not actual performance? and physical fitness? someone who is more fit than someone else recieves a higher wage than someone who isn't as fit, but still perfectly competent/capable of doing the job?
Depends upon the job and performance results achieved. If it's loading logs into a truck, the more fit person's gonna be able to shove more logs per hour into the truck than someone who's not as fit. Fitness in this case, IS directly related to pay. There may even be a bonus structure in place that rewards those with higher fitness because they have higher performance and better results for their employer.

And attitude determines how well you get along with others and how enjoyable the experience is for the team. Personally, I kinda think an employer should be able to specify any kind of criteria they want in hiring and determining wages, as well as fire anyone, any time for whatever reason they chose, or for no reason whatsoever... If you think you're worth more, then the free-market will take care of you by opening up a better-paying job elsewhere.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 02-21-07 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 02-21-07, 04:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden graham
5 years of college and $160,000 later that is what jobs are open to me - $10-15/hr pay
Psych major?
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Old 02-21-07, 04:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
it might run afoul of some discrimination laws
What are we discriminating against here?

Quote:
someone who is more fit than someone else recieves a higher wage than someone who isn't as fit, but still perfectly competent/capable of doing the job?
You don't even know what the job is...
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Old 02-21-07, 04:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sizzam
Psych major?
no, i'm in the natural resources/land management/planning field...i don't want to get too specific here, because i'm afraid of the power of the internets, but i certainly will tell you exactly if you pm me.
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Old 02-21-07, 04:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyquest
You don't even know what the job is...
it is working outside in a natural resources/related field, physical work is definetley required, but it is not something like moving rocks where the sheer number of rocks moved would determine pay
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Old 02-21-07, 04:45 PM   #17
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Fitness will determine what work you do, so will affect your pay grade (For example, one of the women at work cannot do any heavy lifting due to her delicate build...so she doesn't make as much as some of the practically gorilla like guys we have on the line as well...since she cannot fill as many roles as they can (such as moving production equipment, which can weigh anywhere from 40 to 1400lbs...and yes, I'm involved everytime, despite being short and lacking upper body strength...I make up for it in sheer tenacity)). Attitude will also do this, since if you are the best of the whole lot of applicants, but still a sourpuss, they will probably put you in a position where you have less customer contact (thus lower pay in most cases)

Experience....well of course more experience = more pay....they like folks who need as little training as possible off the bat.
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Old 02-21-07, 05:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden graham
no, i'm in the natural resources/land management/planning field...i don't want to get too specific here, because i'm afraid of the power of the internets, but i certainly will tell you exactly if you pm me.
Sounds like a promising area of expertise to me. Hopefully you'll see higher rewards in the future.
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Old 02-21-07, 05:49 PM   #19
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$160,000 in school money invested! I would hope your either a doctor; nuclear physicist; or have 5 degrees!

Dear God...............my 4 years only about $12K and I have made that 500 times over since graduating.

Duke Univ. or maybe Yale education?
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Old 02-21-07, 06:11 PM   #20
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$160,000/5 years = $32,000 per year.

Glad I never racked up that kind of debt.

If employers weren't allowed make physical ability part of the criteria for employment, perhaps I'd be playing for the Washington Redskins.
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Old 02-21-07, 07:00 PM   #21
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assuming this job is in the u.s. and it isn't a public sector job;

the wording of the ad itself....no (unless it can be shown that it adversely affects a protected class of candidates - "4/5's rule").

making a decision based upon a person's ability to perform the essential functions of the job with or without reasonable acommodation....no

based upon sheer stupidity of wording an ad that way and the absence of wording implying their compliance with the american's with disabilities act, it may not be a stretch to say that the selection process is probably not the most objective. talk about raising red flags....sheesh.

attitude...well, that's what employers are hiring more than experience or education (generally). problem with making decisions based upon "attitude" is, an employer may be called on to justify or defend the selection process and that the "attitude" consists of behaviors that are required in order to succeed in the job. a structured behavioral interview can be a way to measure behaviors considered essential to success on the job. the premise is, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.

unfortunately, for many hiring managers, hiring for "attitude" is equal to hiring for "do i like your personality" which is about the same as hiring for "because you're a lot like me."
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Old 02-21-07, 07:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden graham
no, i'm in the natural resources/land management/planning field...i don't want to get too specific here, because i'm afraid of the power of the internets, but i certainly will tell you exactly if you pm me.
There are plenty on decent job in those fields, especially planning. Might have to start low and get experience, especially with the tools or software used, or get a masters in it. I'm probably gonna get a masters in Urban/transportation planning.

And cripes, 160k?? I spent one year at a $40,000/year school and quickly realized it ain't for me!
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Old 02-21-07, 08:09 PM   #23
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Either you're physically and mentally qualified or not, in addition to experience. Simple.
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Old 02-21-07, 08:11 PM   #24
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they probably just want you to be physically fit because the job calls for it. I don't think it's very discriminatory, the Army does the same thing. I have a bum ankle and can't run for longer than 1 minute, the army won't touch me with a 10ft pole.

there's worse discrimination going on anyway, have you ever noticed at a restaurant that all the waiters/waitresses are attractive? or at least somewhat attractive? I can't blame them though I think if they hired very ugly people (although nice, and clean) their business would suffer.

The most recent blatant discrimination i've seen though was when a female classmate went to an Internet Service Provider to turn in her application they told her "we'll put it on file but you probably won't get called because we don't hire women". She got ahold of a good lawyer and got the person that said it fired and the company in big big trouble.
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Old 02-21-07, 08:40 PM   #25
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If the fitness question relates to job performance, it's okay. If not, I believe it is an inquiry into your health, which I don't believe is allowed.
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