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Old 05-30-07, 07:30 AM   #1
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Let's devalue the HS diploma even more

Nowadays the high school diploma is already pretty worthless in the real world; hell its getting harder and harder to get a job with a college education. Does this mean we should just give everyone a high school diploma regardless of whether they actually know anything? Most would say "no", but some parents and students in Fort Worth staged a protest outside of the school district headquarters because students who failed to pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills (TAKS) test were not going to be allowed to graduate. The picture below is from said protest and a picture really is worth a thousand words: Are kids, there knot dum!



Link to the story:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....6fe879b.html#

On a side note, does RyanF live in Fort Worth?
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Old 05-30-07, 08:11 AM   #2
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I think W "graduated" from that school.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:13 AM   #3
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The picture below is from said protest and a picture really is worth a thousand words: Are kids, there knot dum!
The sign that the woman is holding reads: "Let are kids walk"
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Old 05-30-07, 08:13 AM   #4
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A bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma.

An associates degree is the new GED.

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Old 05-30-07, 08:20 AM   #5
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A bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma.
That's truer than any of us would want to believe... Had I ended my education with my B.S. in Biology I might have ended up flipping burgers.

"Let are kids walk." Wow, a picture really IS worth a thousand words.

Parents should be outraged at their kids for not learning, at the teachers for failing to teach, and at themselves for not helping them to learn. Handing an uneducated kid a piece of paper isn't going to make them any smarter. One would think that the parents would be up in arms about making sure that the students had/got what they needed to remediate all the stuff they failed, but in classic American style they're just fighting to let them slide.

Sad.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:30 AM   #6
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Handing an uneducated kid a piece of paper isn't going to make them any smarter.
One root cause of this entitlement to a graduation goes all the way back to kindergarten. These days little 5 year olds get dressed up in gowns and mortarboards because it's cute and parents want to believe their kids have achieved something.

This seems to be part of the recent phenomenon of telling every kid that they are unique and the greatest so as to defend the kid's ego against the cruelties of the world. No one fails so that no one is left out. It's the same as having kids play soccer, but then giving the losers a trophy for their efforts.

This protection against failure gets translated up through the years and we get the uneducated protesters pictured above still trying to keep their kids from the real world.

Kids have to fail to move forward. Parents have to help their kids when they fail, not blame the system. If the system was so corrupt, then there would be no kids who could read, but we know this is not true. If they system is infiltrated with crime and disruption, then that's a different cause of failure that needs to be addressed and not blamed.

Quit blaming the system and start making a difference by putting the responsibility for success on the person who needs it most: the student.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:39 AM   #7
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A friend from a neighboring county was showing me his daughter's spelling test. One of the words was "flow" and it was marked wrong. He and his daughter could not understand why the teacher had marked it wrong so, when he picked her up from school the next day, he asked the teacher what the problem was.

"Well, that's not how flow is spelled."

"Just how would you spell flow?" Jerry asked.

"f-l-o-o-r," the teacher responded. Katie will be going to private school next year.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97
One root cause of this entitlement to a graduation goes all the way back to kindergarten. These days little 5 year olds get dressed up in gowns and mortarboards because it's cute and parents want to believe their kids have achieved something.

This seems to be part of the recent phenomenon of telling every kid that they are unique and the greatest so as to defend the kid's ego against the cruelties of the world. No one fails so that no one is left out. It's the same as having kids play soccer, but then giving the losers a trophy for their efforts.

This protection against failure gets translated up through the years and we get the uneducated protesters pictured above still trying to keep their kids from the real world.

Kids have to fail to move forward. Parents have to help their kids when they fail, not blame the system. If the system was so corrupt, then there would be no kids who could read, but we know this is not true. If they system is infiltrated with crime and disruption, then that's a different cause of failure that needs to be addressed and not blamed.

Quit blaming the system and start making a difference by putting the responsibility for success on the person who needs it most: the student.
How do you explain the student referenced in the article that was one of the best in their class, with a 3.5 gpa, but still failed the texas state test? Did they just copy and cheat their way through school?

There are some lingering issues with having "high stakes" standardized testing to determine who gets a high school diploma. What about special ed students or students with musical/art/technical talent? How are they represented or tested on the tests?

Last edited by BostonFixed; 05-30-07 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by BostonFixed
How do you explain the student referenced in the article that was one of the best in their class, with a 3.5 gpa, but still failed the texas state test? Did they just copy and cheat their way through school?

There are some lingering issues with having "high stakes" testing to determine who gets a high school diploma. What about special ed students or students with musical/art/technical talent? How are they represented or tested on the tests?
I explain it by teachers skewing grades to bolster their own success.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:43 AM   #10
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I explain it by teachers skewing grades to bolster their own success.
Wouldn't every student have a 3.5, or better yet a 4.0 then?
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Old 05-30-07, 08:47 AM   #11
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Sundance square is nice in fort worth.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:48 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BostonFixed
How do you explain the student referenced in the article that was one of the best in their class, with a 3.5 gpa, but still failed the texas state test? Did they just copy and cheat their way through school?
The same way grade inflation is being challenged at Harvard University.

Everyone's getting A's and B's these days. B is the new 'average.'

Nobody wants a C anymore. That's like failing!

Standardized testing is messing things up in a way, as well. Too much time prepping to fill in bubbles, not enough time reading, analyzing, writing, or experimenting.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:50 AM   #13
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Standardized testing is messing things up in a way, as well. Too much time prepping to fill in bubbles, not enough time reading, analyzing, writing, or experimenting.
So you implement a standardized test to determine if one graduates?

Talk about progress.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:57 AM   #14
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So you implement a standardized test to determine if one graduates?

Talk about progress.
I think it's TOTALLY grade inflation. Even at the good state schools around here, you can't get into college with a 3.5 GPA. The high schools have to know this, so you change the grading system to make the students more competitive. I mean, why use all those resources actually TEACHING when you can just arbitrarily raise everyone's grades and make them look better on paper?

I don't care WHAT's on the test. If a high school senior with a 3.5-4.0 GPA can't pass a state-given standardized test that measures the minimum standards for high school graduation, then people aren't getting the GPA's they deserve.
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Old 05-30-07, 08:59 AM   #15
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So you implement a standardized test to determine if one graduates?

Talk about progress.
One test to determine who graduates versus four years of accumulated effort and a set number of courses/credits passed?

Well, if you focus on that one test, then the four years are spent in preparation for that, instead of pursuing a wide array of topics to round out the individual and challenge them to pass courses one at a time.

Standardized testing for rote learning, such as math and grammar, is fine, but not at the expense of a well rounded and well educated person. It should be about education, not just spewing back remembered facts.

Just my take.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:08 AM   #16
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If a high school senior with a 3.5-4.0 GPA can't pass a state-given standardized test that measures the minimum standards for high school graduation, then people aren't getting the GPA's they deserve.
Well, even with grade inflation, high schoolers wanting to get into a good school will have to do very well on the SAT and/or ACT tests.

If you want standardized testing to determine who goes to what college, there you go. They've been around forever and if a student wants to do well they will usually find a way to prepare for it, whether through a course or a test prep book.

So is this conversation about getting into college, or just getting out of high school? Two different beasts.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:11 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97

Nobody wants a C anymore. That's like failing!

Here at MSU it IS failing. Get a C, repeat the class.

One of the main reasons I dropped my pre-med major was because 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, 5 years of residency, then another 3-5 years of field specific school.

I'd be damn near 40 before I became a self sufficient doctor with $200,000 in school loans. All of this for the income that an engineering graduate with 2 years of field study could easily make.

No thank you.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:15 AM   #18
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Old 05-30-07, 09:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonFixed
How do you explain the student referenced in the article that was one of the best in their class, with a 3.5 gpa, but still failed the texas state test? Did they just copy and cheat their way through school?

There are some lingering issues with having "high stakes" standardized testing to determine who gets a high school diploma. What about special ed students or students with musical/art/technical talent? How are they represented or tested on the tests?
If I were in HS now instead of 30 years ago I would have a problem with standardized testing having a lot of weight. I was a 3.5 GPA student but I usually froze at tests. I could know the material forwards, backwards and upside down but put a blank test paper in front of me and I became a hopeless idiot.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:50 AM   #20
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kids today r soos tupid lol!

we were smrater back in are day

Look on teh brite side, tho. are stuipd peple will mak grate factery worker wen we need to compeet wit hthe chinees.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:54 AM   #21
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I think it all comes back to personal responsibility and that, IMHO, many many people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions or inactions. Blame it on the test, teachers, principal, fellow classmates, text books, school lunch, lack of school lunch, etc., etc., etc., *big sigh*
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Old 05-30-07, 10:00 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonFixed
How do you explain the student referenced in the article that was one of the best in their class, with a 3.5 gpa, but still failed the texas state test? Did they just copy and cheat their way through school?

There are some lingering issues with having "high stakes" standardized testing to determine who gets a high school diploma. What about special ed students or students with musical/art/technical talent? How are they represented or tested on the tests?
Because teachers gave "A"s for perfect attendance! Or perhaps for just turning in the homework.

I have a hard time picturing Texas as having a standard test so difficult that what was a 3.5 GPA student when I was in High School could not pass it.
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Old 05-30-07, 10:04 AM   #23
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Or maybe people really are just stupid. Perhaps this is the end result of forcing kids to get their HS diplomas instead of just dropping out and getting a job changing oil or emptying trash cans in the park or just plain 'ol making babies? Despite the requirements, you don't actually need a high school diploma to slice up the roast beef in the Wal-Mart deli.
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Old 05-30-07, 10:07 AM   #24
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Or maybe people really are just stupid. Perhaps this is the end result of forcing kids to get their HS diplomas instead of just dropping out and getting a job changing oil or emptying trash cans in the park or just plain 'ol making babies? Despite the requirements, you don't actually need a high school diploma to slice up the roast beef in the Wal-Mart deli.
How the hell do you think these idiot parents come to be?

Less baby makin', more readin', 'riting, & 'rithmatickin'!
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Old 05-30-07, 10:11 AM   #25
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Why should anybody be allowed to do the graduation walk if they haven't graduated? What a bunch of babies. That sign is classic.
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