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Old 01-21-08, 10:44 PM   #26
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I have a Mac SE, and earlier this week dug it out to check if it worked, it hasn't been used since the early 90s. I booted it up from a hard disk with System 7, and of course after using it a bit, it crashed when running MacWrite right into Macsbug, due to some random inter-program conflict [1].

Yes, even back in the age of the Mac SE, computing sucked sometimes. Floppies died, hard disks went south, crappily written extensions to support various computer extras like scanners were buggy and would bring the system with just a dialog that basically said "oops, you are screwed. [Restart] or [Resume]", and unless you had a debugger installed, the resume button would be dimmed and unavailable. Of course, even though you can see the work you were working on, once that dialog popped up, your work was forever lost unless you had a policy of manually hitting Command-S every time you paused for a break.

If Office or an app like that crashes these days, you can recover data from a temp file, most likely... or it autosaved a version 10 minutes old. However, back then, the only thing saving your work was your manual saves and "Save As..." to backup floppies.

Computers suck in any age. It happens to us all, and nobody is immune. Its an unfortunate fact of life. Best thing to do is keep good backups [2], and keep your antivirus software updated.

[1]: When System 7 was introduced and before OS X, Mac's operating system was known for crashing on a dime, and leaving change. I remember that on people who were on MacOS 8 and 9 having to hardware reset their machines every 1-2 hours just due to badly programmed apps or extensions. Before Mac OS 7.5, the Macintosh operating system was just called "System".

[2]: For good backups, I'd at least recommend something like Retrospect and an external hard disk, as well as either an online backup system like Mozy for document backups, or periodically burning files to DVD.
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Old 01-21-08, 11:51 PM   #27
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1. Learn to secure/maintain windows. "It should just work..." is an unreasonable expectation for any OS in this day and age.

2. Dual boot Linux. It's free and not nearly as vulnerable or unstable as windows, although it takes a DIY spirit to get started. Ween yourself from your dependency upon Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

3. Don't buy Apple. Man, that stuff is horribly overpriced for what you get and then you find yourself in a snare of proprietary hardware/software. Apple may have better design principles but in some ways they are more microsoftish than microsoft.
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Old 01-22-08, 12:03 AM   #28
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1. Learn to secure/maintain windows. "It should just work..." is an unreasonable expectation for any OS in this day and age.

2. Dual boot Linux. It's free and not nearly as vulnerable or unstable as windows, although it takes a DIY spirit to get started. Ween yourself from your dependency upon Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

3. Don't buy Apple. Man, that stuff is horribly overpriced for what you get and then you find yourself in a snare of proprietary hardware/software. Apple may have better design principles but in some ways they are more microsoftish than microsoft.
Given that they only have 8 models in their laptop lineup compared to HP/Dell, you would think they pass on the inventory cost savings to customers.

Paying for Apple products is the prices you pay to make a fashion statement (to some extent).
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Old 01-22-08, 02:46 AM   #29
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Funny... my laptop is 2 years old, still on it's original OS install (XP pro), and runtime is currently just over a week straight (The laptop sits in one spot plugged in 99% of the time)... the ONLY reason the uptime isn't longer is because I shut it down when I moved.

It's currently wanting to reboot because of an update in my backup software, but I haven't bothered to do that yet. Everything else just cruises along on autopilot.
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Old 01-22-08, 03:02 AM   #30
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Microsoft are lazy.
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Old 01-22-08, 03:50 AM   #31
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I'm doing well with a custom install of Vista on my laptop. Its currently been up about a week as well. Because I decided not to bother lugging it to college, its just going to stay home, and if I can't find a free machine, I'll do something that I really should do... like read a book that's not a manual.
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Old 01-22-08, 03:55 AM   #32
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This place is a profound idiotfest. But the entertainment value is undeniable.
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Old 01-22-08, 04:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mrbubbles View Post
Given that they only have 8 models in their laptop lineup compared to HP/Dell, you would think they pass on the inventory cost savings to customers.

Paying for Apple products is the prices you pay to make a fashion statement (to some extent).
No, it's the price I pay for
a) something that actually looks decent, not a monstrosity of wires and beige
b) something that works
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Old 01-22-08, 04:27 AM   #34
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1. Learn to secure/maintain windows. "It should just work..." is an unreasonable expectation for any OS in this day and age.
why? cars "just work", and they're hellacomplex. As much as you need a special computer just to diagnose the damn things, at least they are more reliable than they were decades ago.

Why shouldn't I expect the same of a computer?

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2. Dual boot Linux. It's free and not nearly as vulnerable or unstable as windows, although it takes a DIY spirit to get started. Ween yourself from your dependency upon Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
No thanks. I've spend enough time in DIY hell with MS. I want something nice, not a geekbox.

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3. Don't buy Apple. Man, that stuff is horribly overpriced for what you get and then you find yourself in a snare of proprietary hardware/software. Apple may have better design principles but in some ways they are more microsoftish than microsoft.
On that I'd agree. But at least it works. Since I switched to mac I've never gone back. And never, not once, have I needed to deal with the sh*t my MS box gave me.

time so far spent fixing OS problems on windows machine... I guess in the range of 500 hours. No, actually 1000+ come to think of it.
time so far spent fixing OS problems on my mac... 0.
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Old 01-22-08, 05:01 AM   #35
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Smoke, you could send me the computer.
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Old 01-22-08, 05:07 AM   #36
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Much of the current problems with Windows is due to viruses and spyware (I noticed that you haven't mentioned scanning for trojans and spyware - you might) Windows, due to popularity, is the target generally. And, then people download all the "free" stuff on the Internet and install it.

Mac and Linux appear to be more stable because of this. Apple has much more control of their system than Microsoft - with freedom at times you get Anarchy.

Linux benefits from constant peer review of code. Since the code is open, you have lots of eyes on it. Also, since Linux is not considered the "Evil Empire" it isn't attacked by the virus writers like Microsoft.

This is not to say that I am fan of Microsoft - just stating what I see. Your opinion may well vary.
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Old 01-22-08, 07:28 AM   #37
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Apple's hardware is what it is - well packaged, high on the bling-bling scale, and very expensive considering the specs. Their products (hardware, remember) have never been spectacularly technologically advanced compared to competition.

The one thing they've really excelled in is software, in both functionality and quality aspects. Excluding the brief licensing period somewhere in the late 1990s (that got axed real quick) they only need to test any new piece of OS on Apples. Compared to that, there are infinite different hardware configurations both Windows and Linux are required to run on. Linux developers have the open peer review going for them. That leaves Micro$oft in a considerably worse position to produce truly high quality software. They've got no sympathy from me but I think they do reasonably well, considering the circumstances.

Regarding virii and other malware, I doubt there's much "sticking it to the Man" involved anymore. I'd imagine it just makes perfect sense to concentrate on the most popular OS when writing such code.

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Old 01-22-08, 07:36 AM   #38
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10-20 years...good god you are dreaming. Unless the IT industry hits a huge wall of stagnation that doesn't happen anywhere. This would be a very dull industry if things could last that long. Change is good. If I get 5 years out of a product, the roi has been astronomical. Then I tend to retire them into fun boxes, linux or other variations of play toys. But 20 years is REALLY pushing the limits, that would mean I would still have a 1 gig freaking harddrive. Thank god the industry doesn't follow that mantra.
of course you're right, but you understand the point i was trying to make. i don't think using a computer for ten years is asking too much. it's certainly very dated by then, but look at how little i ask it to do; it's not like i will need to upgrade to a 500 gig hard drive and 82 gig of ram. i don't think asking ten years is too much. i'll drive a car for 15-20 years; why can't i get half that out of a computer if i want?
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Old 01-22-08, 07:40 AM   #39
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why? cars "just work", and they're hellacomplex. As much as you need a special computer just to diagnose the damn things, at least they are more reliable than they were decades ago.

Why shouldn't I expect the same of a computer?
Sure, a car works just fine right off the lot from the dealership. Same as a Windows based computer works just fine when you haul it home from the big-box electronics store.

Now, drive your car around and never change the oil, filters, belts, plugs, wires, and leave it unlocked with the windows down and the keys on the front seat everywhere you park it. Why, that's insane... right?
How is that different than not maintaining your computer through virus and spyware scans, not updating your patches for all your software, and not running any firewall protection?
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Old 01-22-08, 07:44 AM   #40
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10 years in computer technology time is the equivalent of going from a Wright Flyer to the Apollo Spacecraft or the Space Shuttle in terms of technology gap.

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of course you're right, but you understand the point i was trying to make. i don't think using a computer for ten years is asking too much. it's certainly very dated by then, but look at how little i ask it to do; it's not like i will need to upgrade to a 500 gig hard drive and 82 gig of ram. i don't think asking ten years is too much. i'll drive a car for 15-20 years; why can't i get half that out of a computer if i want?
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Old 01-22-08, 07:45 AM   #41
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Do you keep your virus definitions up to date?


Except that Microsoft doesn't design the machines, just the software.


Aside from IE, which software is giving you problems? What problems in particular? You state that the problem wasn't viral... fine. We'll go with that assumption. Did you ever check any system logs to find out what the problem was, or did you just run your virus scanner again and then determine that the whole machine went kaplooey and it was all Microsoft's fault?


Then use a different browser.


Auto updaters for your virus definitions and OS should make these into background operations. I run 2 Windows machines (XP Pro and Vista Home Premium) and the most that I have to interact with my virus scanning and patch updater software is a single click of the mouse to reboot my machine after the automatic installations.


They still are, if you maintain them properly.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to equate the "Windows sux! Screw Microsoft" rants with general lack of upkeep. Trash folder with 20,000 items in it, a zillion cookies, dangly bits from uninstalled programs all over the registry. A computer is like a bike: If you maintain it well, it should last you for a very long time. If you don't, expect it to up and die on you when you need it the most.
I'm writing this email from a machine that is a mish-mash of parts that are between 7 and 10 years old, running Windows XP Pro, and crash/freeze free for longer than I can remember.

all valid points. and in reply, yes, i update the virus definitions twice a week. i run the anti-virus software 1-2 times a week. all cookies are removed at that time. i've run the virus scanner again. microsoft word is also not responding correctly. believe me, i am going to use another browser; the one on the macbook. again, while i'm no expert, i keep the virus stuff up to date, i run it constantly, i defrag the hard drive, the recycle bin is empty, and i try and keep the machine fairly 'cleaned up'. i don't blame microsoft for any hardware issues, but i don't have any hardware issues. i'm sure you have a valid point about computer upkeep, but i think i do a fairly good job of it. certainly not the best, but i just don't think i should have to learn how to write code or build the machine to keep it working correctly. and none of this changes the fact that i'm sick of this and that i never hear of these frustrations from my friends that have macs. i'm sure they have them, too, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as much. so i'm gonna try their way; the dark side
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Old 01-22-08, 07:51 AM   #42
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Well, to be fair, it's too much to ask of any computing product, PC, Mac, or Linux. (See many people runing a Mac SE lately?) If this is the bar below which you're going to go postal on us, then you best not use any computer. PCs are powerful but very complex devices, the standards are evolving rapidly, people install and do all sorts of bizarre things with them, and they're sold in a ruthlessly cost-competitive marketplace. This is not a refrigerator (or even a TV) you're buying here. Be a little more reasonable, and you'll generate a lot less stomach acid.

- Mark

point taken. but as i posted above, i think 5-10 years use of a computer is a fair amount to ask. i know it's complex, but not as much as my car, and i expect that to last 15-20 years. so why should a machine sitting on my desk be special?
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Old 01-22-08, 07:53 AM   #43
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all valid points. and in reply, yes, i update the virus definitions twice a week. i run the anti-virus software 1-2 times a week. all cookies are removed at that time. i've run the virus scanner again. microsoft word is also not responding correctly. believe me, i am going to use another browser; the one on the macbook. again, while i'm no expert, i keep the virus stuff up to date, i run it constantly, i defrag the hard drive, the recycle bin is empty, and i try and keep the machine fairly 'cleaned up'. i don't blame microsoft for any hardware issues, but i don't have any hardware issues. i'm sure you have a valid point about computer upkeep, but i think i do a fairly good job of it. certainly not the best, but i just don't think i should have to learn how to write code or build the machine to keep it working correctly. and none of this changes the fact that i'm sick of this and that i never hear of these frustrations from my friends that have macs. i'm sure they have them, too, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as much. so i'm gonna try their way; the dark side
So then where are your virus' coming from? I don't run a virus scan on my PC, I download illegal music, surf porn, and email people on craigslist. My computer runs fine. Why is everyone else that owns a PC getting virus' while I'm not? I probably have a few cookie virus' that don't affect my performance as far as I can tell, but I haven't had any virus that has locked down my computer or anything.
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Old 01-22-08, 07:54 AM   #44
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Smoke, might be able to get that thing strategically placed on the range for you and let someone put a 500 pounder or 30 mm through it. If all else fails, just blow the f'in thing up.
that's an EXCELLENT idea! i'll put it on ground zero and let you hog drivers make LAB passes at it. SHACK, two! i'll buy beers for the guy that hits it! i LOVE this idea!
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Old 01-22-08, 07:55 AM   #45
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If you're using a computer thats more than 10 years old, you probably will barely be able to open most webpages, or anything that runs javascript
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Old 01-22-08, 08:29 AM   #46
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damn Vista
+10000
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Old 01-22-08, 08:29 AM   #47
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yeah it is pretty easy to rant, but come up with a technical problem for your computer...

are there hardware issues ?

software issues ?

what is the problem ? if you don't know or can't figure it out, well then you deserve a mac.

for the rest of us, we'll determine specific issues with our microsoft machines and deal with
them accordingly and fix it instead of whining.
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Old 01-22-08, 08:38 AM   #48
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If you're using a computer thats more than 10 years old, you probably will barely be able to open most webpages, or anything that runs javascript
+1

Win98se and IE6, BARELY cuts the mustard!
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Old 01-22-08, 08:48 AM   #49
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Sure, a car works just fine right off the lot from the dealership. Same as a Windows based computer works just fine when you haul it home from the big-box electronics store.

Now, drive your car around and never change the oil, filters, belts, plugs, wires, and leave it unlocked with the windows down and the keys on the front seat everywhere you park it. Why, that's insane... right?
How is that different than not maintaining your computer through virus and spyware scans, not updating your patches for all your software, and not running any firewall protection?
awesome point.
And to add on top of that - most people had to go through drivers training & get a license to use a car. They have to learn to drive respectfully & defensively. Anyone can just hop into a car and drive it off the lot. But chances are they'll either a) get into an accident, or b) eventually break down from lack of maintenance.
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Old 01-22-08, 09:14 AM   #50
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Don't forget about using a firewall app such as ZoneAlarm and a spyware app such as Ad-Aware.
As you download more and more Windows, Office, IE, and other updates, you must realize these
may allocate more of your system's memory; you should buy more more memory or at least increase
virtual memory. You should also remove/close unnecesssary or unused applets in your sys tray
(bottom right corner) Also, you can uninstall add-on search bars that soemtimes get installed free
with other software.

Don't forget about cleanup in IE viaTools > Internet Options. Follow this with Start > All Programs >
Accessories > System Tools > Disk Cleanup.

Also, see if you have multiple pop-up blockers installed.
Uninstall sofwtare you don't need; some auto-start polling/listening applets
under windows task manager.

There should be some shareware tools out there to analyze yor system and or help cleanup
windows registry.
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