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Old 11-03-03, 01:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foehn
Did you realise that this is a medical procedure usually done in a hospital? Do you know how many very, very nasty infections you can pick up in a hospital? The risk of these hospital infections is going up all the time.
Good God! foehn's right! Never go to the hospital. Those places are full of sick people!

(Remind me to offer my opinion next time there's a thread on ovarian cysts since I'll be just as qualified to post.)
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Old 11-03-03, 01:44 PM   #27
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GENITAL MUTILATION - how barbaric!!!
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Old 11-03-03, 02:33 PM   #28
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Cut it off....Whats the point of having it?...I find it nice not having to move skin around when I use the restroom like some of my friends
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Old 11-03-03, 02:35 PM   #29
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i'd say go for it. firstly due to my religious beliefs, secondly due to my personal opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foehn
First, it is an involuntary surgical procedure, performed on a person unable to give consent and unable to be informed enough to give consent. It is usually done so the child will look like "everyone" else. But not "everyone" else has (or has had this) this procedure done. Sounds unnecessary to me
islamically, it's obligatory for newborn boys to be circumcised on the 7th day. i also know that other religions practice this as part of their religious beliefs. because of this, i wouldn't say that saying that circumcision is something usually done so that the child will look like everyone else is a very accurate thing to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foehn
Did you realise that this is a medical procedure usually done in a hospital? Do you know how many very, very nasty infections you can pick up in a hospital? The risk of these hospital infections is going up all the time.
if the lady chooses to have her son circumcised she doesn’t have to have it done in a hospital. in fact, if she does decide to have it done, my advice would be to have it done by a jewish moyle (sp?). most of my friends who've had sons, including my brother, took their sons to a moyle to get circumcised for the simple fact that it's what they do for a living. no impersonal doctors just performing some “surgical procedure”, no germ infested hospitals to worry about catching an infection in, no scary weird looking instruments used for the procedure – when my wife and i attended our prenatal classes, they showed us some pictures of the tools they use in hospitals as well as some pictures of penises just after the surgery was performed (the midwife conducting the classes was against circumcision)... the pictures were kind of gruesome and didn't look pleasant at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spexy
Female circumcision is to prevent females from having orgasm, not for cleanliness or visual appearance.
not in all circumstances. islamically, female circumcision is a recommended practice (and not obligatory as some people have said – not on this board, just generally speaking) where only the “hood” surrounding the clitoris is cut and not the clitoris itself... from what i've read it's more for visual appearance than anything else i can think of (i'll have to read up on it again to be sure about everything). they're supposed to cut the hood around the clitoris sparingly and not excessively - cutting less is better than cutting more. if i have time when i get home from work i'll post a quote from one of the islamic books i have that discusses issues pertaining to newborns. it has a short section on female circumcision.

about people wishing they had/hadn't had it done, i personally have one friend whose parents didn't have him circumsized when he was born, but then later decided to get it done himself. although he was was only 13 and not 60 (like the guy mentioned above), and the recovery time was probably shorter, it still did hurt a lot... and it's something he's going to remember probably for the rest of his life, whereas someone who was circumsized when they was born (like myself), probably won't remember a thing.
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Old 11-03-03, 05:59 PM   #30
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i was able to check check that islamic book i mentioned concerning issues pertaining to newborns... i have a correction to make from my earlier post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasheed
islamically, it's obligatory for newborn boys to be circumcised on the 7th day.
according to the book, it’s recommended to circumcise newborn boys on the 7th day, however it is permissible to do so before that and after that. circumcision becomes obligatory at the attainment of puberty.

as for female circumcision, here’s that quote i said i’d post if i had time:
Quote:
description
female circumcision is largely similar to male circumcision, but is applied to the clitoris instead of the penis. just like the foreskin surrounding the glans, the clitoris is surrounded by a small hood connected to two flaps of skin called the “labia minora”.

female circumcision involves removing part or all of the clitoral hood and the labia minora.

excessive circumcision
pharaonic circumcision in the nile valley is as old as recorded history, and continues to be practiced in sudan, egypt, and other african countries. because of its clearly brutal and destructive nature, it is often called “female genital mutilation”.

pharaonic circumcision involves excision of the clitoris, the labia minora and the inner, fleshy layers of the labia majora. the remaining outer edges of the labia majora are then brought together so that when the wound has healed they are fused so as to leave only a pinhole-sized opening. urination and menstruation must thereafter be accomplished through this remaining pinhole-sized apeture.
then the author quotes some islamic texts regarding the issue of female circumcision (one of which is a command from Prophet Muhammad to trim slightly and not excessively)... then goes on to say:
Quote:
from the above, we see that female circumcision is voluntary. it is recommended for women with excessive labia growth, which is more common among women in warm climates.
source: “our precious sprouts: islamic regulations for newborns”, author: muhammad al-jibaly. published by: al-kitaab & as-sunnah publishing.

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Old 11-03-03, 05:59 PM   #31
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Males who are circumcised as infants do not remember the procedure and are not traumatized by it.

Looking like everyone else is not a very valid consideration, to my thinking, since most young males worry that their penis is too small, bent funny, whatever.

Religious requirements are one thing. If your religion requires male circumcision, call the moyle and have it done.

Health concerns are another thing. Statiscally the benefits of circumcision are small.

If I had a son, I would probably have him circumcised for this reason: I have known two males who needed to be circumcised later in life...one at age 6, the other in his 30s. In both cases, it was fairly traumatic. Yeah, two males out of all the men and boys I've known is statistically small, but for those two statistics didn't mean much.
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Old 11-03-03, 06:25 PM   #32
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Rasheed, i have no problems with the prepuce removal or the hood of the clitoris removed but I have seen the horrific problems with the more extensive clitoral excisions and the labial closures in terms of horrific scarring and painful and unorgasmic intercourses. However, it looks like if the little girls are having these extreme forms of circumcision done, it is not voluntary (they are not old enough to make that decision for themselves) and may be contrary to Islamic law. I don't like how many of the extreme mutilations remove all the joy and pleasure for these women.
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Old 11-03-03, 07:04 PM   #33
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Yikes! As a guy I would say do it just because it makes life that much easier. You can tell your son to wash his hands, but that doesn't mean he does it. I'm not resentful that it was done without my consent, I'm just glad I don't remember having the procedure done period! I couldn't imagine a 60 year old guy going through that. He's lucky he didn't have a heart attack.
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Old 11-03-03, 09:28 PM   #34
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Yikes! As a guy I would say do it just because it makes life that much easier. You can tell your son to wash his hands, but that doesn't mean he does it. I'm not resentful that it was done without my consent, I'm just glad I don't remember having the procedure done period! I couldn't imagine a 60 year old guy going through that. He's lucky he didn't have a heart attack.


Either way, male or female I cringe! When I had my son, I was asked later that day if we planned or wanted to have him circumsized. The way they put it gave me the impression that of course I was going to have it done, and that they needed to know to schedule the procedure. Everyone else does it, how about you--a cultural assumption.

And as for comparing circumcision to an appendectomy, well, you can have very severe consequences from any surgical procedure, and I feel the less you have to open your body up to the outside, the better. Granted, there is less "risk" from the cutting of a little skin (circumcision) than there is in opening the abdominal wall, but there is risk in both procedures. You could die of a thorn prick, highly unlikely, but still possible.

--and I wonder about all these men no remembering it. . .maybe that's some men are so "penis-centric"--they're worried subconciously about someone cutting some more off! Yikes! (this is a JOKE! )

I bet that 60 year old guy got real good local anesthetic and good pain care afterwards!
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Old 11-04-03, 06:34 AM   #35
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This was done to me when I was 8 or 9 years old. No trauma or big deal. Yes, I had local anesthetic, I remember pre- and post-operation scenes from the hospital, and I remember a couple of days of soreness. This was no religious thing, nor was there any acute medical reason to do it. The family doctor for some reason recommended it.

As it is usually done at a young age, few of us guys can really compare their lives before and after the operation. I know I have no way of telling whether my life would be better or different. The risks both ways seem to be small, especially as risks related to the procedure itself are difficult to evaluate.

For me: I certainly do not blame my parents for having it done.

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Old 11-04-03, 11:04 AM   #36
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As an intact male, I say don't do it. We are born with it, and unless the glans enlarging with age causes tightness, there is no GOOD reason for removal, other than cultural pressure.

With regard to medical risk re HIV, is that not what condoms are for?


You can't do an effective turtle impression if you are circumsised
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Old 11-04-03, 11:25 AM   #37
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Well,

I say dont do it.

In the US maybe 70% of people have it done, but why? Mainly because the victorians thougth it would prevent ************ which saps the precious boldily fluids and leads to blindness. Evenrything since then seems to be an excuse to perpetuate this tradition. Currently pediatricians have gone from recommending the procedure to saying it is not recommended.

Elsewhere than the US, rarely anyone has it done except for religious reasons. It seems rather cruel to cut off a perfectly good body part because someday it might make it harder to get a STD or something.

IMHO, it is a natural part of the body that god intended a man to have, 80% of the men on the planet have it with no ill effects, and the child cannot consent to having this done. I have read reports from men that had it done later in life that it makes sex much less pleasurable when the type of skin on the glans changes (as CB said keratinizes.)

Let your child choose for himself when he is old enough, the victorian age died off long ago, too long ago to perpetuate their bad science in the name of discarded moral constructs.

take care,

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Old 11-04-03, 06:34 PM   #38
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I have 3 sons, we opted to not do so, on our physicians advice, this is not like bobbing a Dobermans tail and ears.
I was, and was done so without my parents consent. It was common practice here to do so, immediately following delivery.
As for no responses as to preferring that they were or werent, honestly, I do wish that they had left my Schwantz alone!!
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Old 11-04-03, 07:55 PM   #39
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I was circumsized when I was 4 years old. Don't know why my mother waited so long.
It turned out that the doctor did a poor job and it didn't heal correctly. I lived with it until I was 50 years old when my wife convinced me to have it "re-done".

Just make sure the doctor does it right and it heals correctly.
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Old 11-04-03, 08:27 PM   #40
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I lived with it until I was 50 years old when my wife convinced me to have it "re-done".
ouch!!!
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Old 11-05-03, 03:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegularGuy
Males who are circumcised as infants do not remember the procedure and are not traumatized by it.

Looking like everyone else is not a very valid consideration, to my thinking, since most young males worry that their penis is too small, bent funny, whatever.

Religious requirements are one thing. If your religion requires male circumcision, call the moyle and have it done.

Health concerns are another thing. Statiscally the benefits of circumcision are small.

If I had a son, I would probably have him circumcised for this reason: I have known two males who needed to be circumcised later in life...one at age 6, the other in his 30s. In both cases, it was fairly traumatic. Yeah, two males out of all the men and boys I've known is statistically small, but for those two statistics didn't mean much.
RG,

I agree with you almost 100%, but, you neglected to mention why the two males needed to be circumcised later in life. Since nobody opts to have this procedure done later in life unless dictated by health reason I think your fourth point is incorrect. It’s always better being able to go to the restroom, shaking the thing and go as opposed to pulling skin back, worrying about whether there is any remaining urine, did you wash it right during your shower, etc., etc. all of which lead to not being clean and health problems down the road. Another point not even mentioned is that a circumcised penis is not as sensitive as an un-circumcised penis thereby leading to better sex since you don’t climax 30 seconds into the act. Sorry to be so graphic folks, but some people (who don’t even have penises) just don’t get.
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Old 11-06-03, 09:22 AM   #42
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I'd say, "don't do it". If the reasoning is to look like everyone else, there are a significant # of people NOT circumsing their sons. So, it'll be less of an issue these days.

Secondly, I speak from personal experience. I'm not! Hasn't negatively affected me in ANY way. The only time I wished I'd had was in middle school PE class when we had to "dress out" and then shower. A discussion with my parents as to "why am I different down there" was all I needed and actually gave me a bit more self esteem when I was older.

Thirdly, have you ever seen a botched cicumcision? My wife's cousin wished he never cicumcised their son due to the infection and now lopsided after-affect. Trying to make their son "Look like everyone else" had serious negative results. All this for a non-necessary procedure.

My parents explained to me, that the basis for cicumcision is based on religious rituals. We are not of the faith that believes in these rituals, so why do it?

Also, my parents are Spanish (Dad from Argentina, Mom from Spain). It's definately a cultural thing. Very few boys in Latin cultures are cicumcised. And have not been for many generations. You don't see any problems in these cultures as a result do you? Americans do, I don't know why. Maybe it's the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality so prevalent in this society. Maybe NOT cicumcising the boy is a first step in teaching him to not be part of this mentality.

Lastly, I did NOT cicumcise my son. He's learned to wash it every night during his bath. (He's 3.5 years old). It's no different than teaching him to wash his hands after going "potty" or brushing his teeth every night before bed. We don't even need to say anything to him anymore, it's become an automatic response.

The reasons my wife and I did not; I mentioned above and also so he didn't look different than Daddy. If no Daddy is in the picture, then that's not an issue for your friend.

Hope this helps!

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Old 11-06-03, 09:53 AM   #43
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Also, my parents are Spanish (Dad from Argentina, Mom from Spain). It's definately a cultural thing. Very few boys in Latin cultures are cicumcised. And have not been for many generations.
this maybe true in more recent times, but i’m pretty sure back when the majority spain/portugal was ruled and inhabited by muslims, they were circumcising their boys due to islamic beliefs and obligations. it’s interesting though, how some things change over time.
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Old 11-06-03, 10:21 AM   #44
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This proceedure was done to me when I was an infant and I don't feel the least bit violated, or like I'm missing something. I, as a male, do have a question for Spexy and Foehn; Which state would you prefer in your SO?
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Old 11-06-03, 10:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Buzzbomb
This proceedure was done to me when I was an infant and I don't feel the least bit violated, or like I'm missing something. I, as a male, do have a question for Spexy and Foehn; Which state would you prefer in your SO?
I prefer my mate to be happy. He did actually tell me (when we were discussing our son's possible circumcision) that he wishes it had not been done to him. . .

As for experience, I've only had experience with one type (she said carefully. . .).
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Old 11-06-03, 01:30 PM   #46
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This proceedure was done to me when I was an infant and I don't feel the least bit violated, or like I'm missing something. I, as a male, do have a question for Spexy and Foehn; Which state would you prefer in your SO?
Florida?

Oh, geez. I'd like to plead the 5th in this case but since I'm the one who started the !#@#$ thread...

It really doesn't matter to me. Truth is, in this country the defrocked phallus has been romanticized more and so most American women 'expect' to see a circumcised penis. BUT, I can't imagine it being a deal breaker either way, as many women are attracted to men as a whole not just the block and tackle.
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Old 11-06-03, 01:33 PM   #47
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the block and tackle.
LOL, never heard that one before. Apologies to both you and Foehn if I was getting too personal.
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Old 11-06-03, 03:30 PM   #48
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Florida?
Arrrgh! Good comeback!
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Old 11-06-03, 03:33 PM   #49
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I guess for some it'd be like choosing Han Solo or Chewbaca one's better looking but the other may be better equipped? But what the heck do I know.

Hey Spexy I'm in FL
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Old 11-06-03, 03:43 PM   #50
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I guess for some it'd be like choosing Han Solo or Chewbaca one's better looking but the other may be better equipped?
My burning questions are: How do we know who is better equipped? And do you have some inside info in this matter?

Sorry, but I had to ask. . .
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