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  1. #1
    Senior Member Sledbikes's Avatar
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    talk about shafting the army

    my friend has been in the military since 2001 in 03 he went to iraq and did 4 tours over the course he lost his job,car and now house when he got news of this the army said they cant help him what does he do? pulls a section 8 gets released. yeah he lost all benefits but gained a better higher paying job working for a private security team in, you guessed it, Iraq making 445,000$ a year compared to the 30k he was making working for the government he came out on top superior equipment and weapons and rotation which means hell be able to spend time with his kid and keep from getting his house stolen. that seems the way to go nowadays im gonna look into that
    riding and pimpin again

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    Lookin' Forward to Summer OldRoadGuy's Avatar
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    Sometimes there are alternative ways to reach your objective.
    If you/he are willing to take the risk it can pay off quite lucratively.
    The cost can also be higher than ever expected. The service is
    generally a starting point foot in the door experience for most.
    Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by substructure View Post
    If I wanted true friends I wouldn't eat my spaghetti with a fork. I'm not sure what that means but you get the jest of it. Or not.

  3. #3
    J E R S E Y S B E S T Jerseysbest's Avatar
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    Private security team in Iraq for close to half a mill/year? Say your good byes now cause that boys being paid to die.
    Quote Originally Posted by SingingSabre View Post
    Cheating: a symptom of the problem.

  4. #4
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerseysbest View Post
    Private security team in Iraq for close to half a mill/year? Say your good byes now cause that boys being paid to die.
    First of all, those guys don't lose very many men.
    Second of all, don't be such an insensitive *******.
    Third of all, we have a forum where you can express such politically charged views.

  5. #5
    was kung-fu fighting lodi781's Avatar
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    I don't think he's being insensitive, but realistic. My buddy is ex spec-ops and worked for two private contracting agencies. To get GOV contracts, they need certain manpower levels. Because there aren't enough spec ops guys coming out of the service, they have to fill the void somehow. In the beginning of the war, they were hiring cops and other non combat personnel to fill the void. well, those people have no or little combat experience, hence they end up getting killed or hurt. When your in the service, you know the guy next to you is trained to the same level you are. When you enter one of these agencies, you may end up with joe-blow for a partner. Not good for you. Just something to think about is all i'm saying. What good's the money if you aint around to spend it.
    " The love you withhold is the pain you carry, lifetime after lifetime."

  6. #6
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    The army is all about shafting underpriviliged and kids from poverty areas.
    I know someone (female) who did the same thing when they didnt give her
    what the recruiter promised they would. Good for them. I wish more people
    would do it.
    How much support would the army give him for a case of PTSD ??
    The same amount they did with his house.
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  7. #7
    Senior Member skiahh's Avatar
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    I'm having serious doubts about the half a million a year figure. I'd have to see that in writing.

    Maybe it's half a million, but you pay for all your own medical expenses... including if you get blown up by an IED or shot.
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  8. #8
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sledbikes View Post
    my friend has been in the military since 2001 in 03 he went to iraq and did 4 tours over the course he lost his job,car and now house when he got news of this the army said they cant help him what does he do? pulls a section 8 gets released. yeah he lost all benefits but gained a better higher paying job working for a private security team in, you guessed it, Iraq making 445,000$ a year compared to the 30k he was making working for the government he came out on top superior equipment and weapons and rotation which means hell be able to spend time with his kid and keep from getting his house stolen. that seems the way to go nowadays im gonna look into that
    First you'll need to find the Shift key on your computer.

  9. #9
    Hazardous Taerom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    First you'll need to find the Shift key on your computer.
    Hey, he capitalized Iraq.

  10. #10
    carbon positive lifestyle carbonlife's Avatar
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    talk about shafting the american public. who do you think pays for that?

    And why do we have so many contractors (seemingly accountable to no one) doing the work that the military should be doing? Oh that's right, because the military are trained to fight wars not be occupying forces! And oh yeah, because the military has been over-committed for years because of a failed foreign policy, even though General Shinseki warned of this and was publicly ridiculed by the politicians in charge...

  11. #11
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lodi781 View Post
    I don't think he's being insensitive, but realistic. My buddy is ex spec-ops and worked for two private contracting agencies. To get GOV contracts, they need certain manpower levels. Because there aren't enough spec ops guys coming out of the service, they have to fill the void somehow. In the beginning of the war, they were hiring cops and other non combat personnel to fill the void. well, those people have no or little combat experience, hence they end up getting killed or hurt. When your in the service, you know the guy next to you is trained to the same level you are. When you enter one of these agencies, you may end up with joe-blow for a partner. Not good for you. Just something to think about is all i'm saying. What good's the money if you aint around to spend it.
    How in the world have you addressed the claim that he's going to die? The claim, if based on statistics, is simply inaccurate. Though, certainly, anyone living or working in Iraq is in grave danger, especially if they are in the business of "security", the fact of the matter is that these private security details are not dieing at the same rates as the military does.

    The fact is that there are considerably more private contractors in Iraq than there are military personnel, yet they have considerably fewer casualties.

    There are roughly 180,000 private contractors operating in Iraq and the account for roughly 980 deaths.

  12. #12
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbonlife View Post
    talk about shafting the american public. who do you think pays for that?

    And why do we have so many contractors (seemingly accountable to no one) doing the work that the military should be doing? Oh that's right, because the military are trained to fight wars not be occupying forces! And oh yeah, because the military has been over-committed for years because of a failed foreign policy, even though General Shinseki warned of this and was publicly ridiculed by the politicians in charge...
    That was my reaction as well.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  13. #13
    Senior Member Sledbikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    I'm having serious doubts about the half a million a year figure. I'd have to see that in writing.

    Maybe it's half a million, but you pay for all your own medical expenses... including if you get blown up by an IED or shot.
    they get benefits but hell be making 1500 a day running escorts from the greenzone



    have you guys even seen what these guys are driving, the army just barely began putting these in the fleet


    riding and pimpin again

  14. #14
    Behold my avatar: dgodave's Avatar
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    I expect to see lots of these with Texas plates in the next few years.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sledbikes View Post
    have you guys even seen what these guys are driving, the army just barely began putting these in the fleet


    .

  15. #15
    Senior Member Sledbikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgodave View Post
    I expect to see lots of these with Texas plates in the next few years.
    .
    these have been out for about 6 years the MRAP is only 4
    riding and pimpin again

  16. #16
    was kung-fu fighting lodi781's Avatar
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    The fact is that there are considerably more private contractors in Iraq than there are military personnel, yet they have considerably fewer casualties.

    There are roughly 180,000 private contractors operating in Iraq and the account for roughly 980 deaths.[/QUOTE]

    That is because not all of those 180 grand are combat oriented. A large portion of contractors handle support operations, I.E. food and water ( which, they've been failing miserably at). So once you give a true number of contractors IN COMBAT ROLES Then we can get a true ratio of KIA to active personel. As for the adressing of being killed, If the person you are with is not trained to the same level you are, that can get you killed. very quickly. It may not be a death sentence like the previous poster had said, but it definetly doesn't help your chances of survival. My argument, is that there are agencies that are not hiring properly trained personnel for the job at hand, and THAT is putting trained personnel at greater risk.
    " The love you withhold is the pain you carry, lifetime after lifetime."

  17. #17
    was kung-fu fighting lodi781's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgodave View Post
    I expect to see lots of these with Texas plates in the next few years.
    .
    They had one of those at the new york auto show this week. They're more impressive in person.
    " The love you withhold is the pain you carry, lifetime after lifetime."

  18. #18
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lodi781 View Post
    The fact is that there are considerably more private contractors in Iraq than there are military personnel, yet they have considerably fewer casualties.

    There are roughly 180,000 private contractors operating in Iraq and the account for roughly 980 deaths.
    That is because not all of those 180 grand are combat oriented. A large portion of contractors handle support operations, I.E. food and water ( which, they've been failing miserably at). So once you give a true number of contractors IN COMBAT ROLES Then we can get a true ratio of KIA to active personel. As for the adressing of being killed, If the person you are with is not trained to the same level you are, that can get you killed. very quickly. It may not be a death sentence like the previous poster had said, but it definetly doesn't help your chances of survival. My argument, is that there are agencies that are not hiring properly trained personnel for the job at hand, and THAT is putting trained personnel at greater risk.
    Given that these security companies do not operate on the same rules, it is my understanding that they are often "more safe". Though you are correct, and i have tried to track these numbers down but had to end my little search for the sake of actual research i must get done for school.

    In due time

  19. #19
    Senior Member Will G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbonlife View Post
    talk about shafting the american public. who do you think pays for that?

    And why do we have so many contractors (seemingly accountable to no one) doing the work that the military should be doing? Oh that's right, because the military are trained to fight wars not be occupying forces! And oh yeah, because the military has been over-committed for years because of a failed foreign policy, even though General Shinseki warned of this and was publicly ridiculed by the politicians in charge...
    Let's see here...Why we are using civilian contractors:
    1. Drawdowns in the numbers of military personnel set by Congress. So, if you are in the shooting business, you need to keep those to remain a military and farm out the support functions.
    2. Limits on troops numbers allowed in theater. Usually politically set by the host country or by our own remarkably knowledgeable and helpful Congressional representatives.
    3. Cheaper to the US to the tune of @$15,000 per individual.
    4. The civilian contractor thing is not just overseas, it is quite prevalent stateside. Again, weapons employment we keep, anything else is being contracted out.
    5. The accountability issue is an ongoing debate. Technically, civilian contractors do not come under the Laws of Armed Combat (LOAC). Dealing with an adversary that specifically targets civilians makes this difficult so when is the contractor a combatant and when is the contractor not a combatant? Civilians can not be ordered into a hostile environment without their consent.
    Flying a jet is no different than riding a bicycle. It's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  20. #20
    blithering idiot jhota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lodi781 View Post
    They had one of those at the new york auto show this week. They're more impressive in person.
    i see them on the road all the time - since they build a ton of them around here. that looks like a MaxxPro (Cat 1 MRAP - isn't it cute?); if you want impressive, you want a Buffalo (Cat 3).

    but as for the topic at hand:

    while i empathize with our service personnel over the raw deal they get from the government, i'm troubled by our government's extensive use of mercenary troops. while there are jobs our military cannot do, it seems it's mostly due to overly constrictive ROEs and poor material support (since the contractors supplying these troops are hiring ex-service personnel).

    and, while they may be cheaper, is the lack of oversight worth it? and why are they cheaper? if the pay is so much better (and it is), how poorly is the military mismanaged to create that costing difference?

  21. #21
    carbon positive lifestyle carbonlife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will G View Post
    Let's see here...Why we are using civilian contractors:
    Thanks for the info. I'll be more specific, and expand my comments:

    I was referring to the highly paid armed civilian contractors (see the OP), doing security details and armed escort, yet aren't held to the same standards as soldiers, and are seemingly protected by the U.S. from Iraqi attempts to prosecute potential crimes.

    The Adminstration and the media keep referring to this as a "war," yet I don't think civilians would be running the supply lines in a real war. This is an occupation, which is strategically, tactically, and politically very different from war, and it's distasteful for everyone to accept. I believe highly paid civilians are running the supplies in Iraq. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    From all I've read about the incentives (high pay, etc.) given to civilian contractors, I assumed that they were more expensive than soldiers. Therefore, I was taking exception to the thread title. If you say otherwise, I'll take your word for it until someone contradicts you.

    True, troop strength is a political game, but it was the executive branch that initially decided that this conflict could be won with minimal numbers, despite the advice of some of the highest ranked officers. Even before the war started I read this stuff and I believed the generals, not the politicians. I believe if we had a massive presence initially, to better protect the border and to have a more distributed presence, instead of moving around from hotspot to hotspot, this would not be dragging on so long. And now Congress is trying to appease the voting public with further restrictions as the Administration now wants more troops.

    The length of the occupation is really the root issue here, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about the OP's friend losing his stuff because of his four tours, and no one would be concerned with how much the contractors are paid.

    Sorry, I guess this thread is doomed. Blue stars, please ignore this thread.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Sledbikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhota View Post
    i see them on the road all the time - since they build a ton of them around here. that looks like a MaxxPro (Cat 1 MRAP - isn't it cute?); if you want impressive, you want a Buffalo (Cat 3).
    dont know if they have those. he has superior experience in driving we both went to skip barber and took the evasive driving test that the police take,got our CDLs he went furder and got a Hazmat CDL so even if he decides to come back hell still have a high paying job. his job is to get to point B as fast and safely as possible
    riding and pimpin again

  23. #23
    Administrator Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    I'm having serious doubts about the half a million a year figure. I'd have to see that in writing.

    Maybe it's half a million, but you pay for all your own medical expenses... including if you get blown up by an IED or shot.
    No doubt.
    Half million for a section eight? Haliburton, Blackwater, and whomever is writing their checks can kiss my incredulous ass; money that would be better used by the service.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sledbikes View Post
    they get benefits but hell be making 1500 a day running escorts from the greenzone



    have you guys even seen what these guys are driving, the army just barely began putting these in the fleet


    Now that would be a great vehicle for me in Austin, although I'd have big issues with parking.

    Only two problems I see... the engine is only a I6, although it does give it 330 hp, and I'd probably flip it going on some curving roads.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Sledbikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllenG View Post
    No doubt.
    Half million for a section eight? Haliburton, Blackwater, and whomever is writing their checks can kiss my incredulous ass; money that would be better used by the service.
    yeah by ghostriding a 850,000$ vehicle

    http://break.com/index/ghost-ride-the-tank.html
    riding and pimpin again

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