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Old 11-07-03, 05:55 PM   #26
TrekRider
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Originally Posted by cbhungry
It's awful they treat pigs like that since they are more intelligent than dogs. If we treated dogs like that, there would be an uproar. I personally eat very little meat though I am not a vegetarian, preferring fish most of all. I think I am going to get organic, farm raised eggs but I am not sure if their conditions are better. Would you know Gonesh? In addition,I do know they sell meat from cows that graze but it is more expensive.
Yeah, but can a pig fetch the paper? Also, how far do you think that Australian group would have gotten had their name been Three Pig Night?
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Old 11-07-03, 05:59 PM   #27
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Anyone have any opinions regarding health benefits or health dangers of a vegetarian diet?

My daughter-in-law eats only skinless chicken and fish. No red meat or pork whatsoever. She is extremely healthy. She also has a degree in health, a minor in sports physiology, and teaches high school health and nutrition.

Whatever works for you. I happen to love a steak, medium rare, smothered in onions and mushrooms, a juicy, blood-rare barbequed hamburger, as well as a nice broiled salmon or talapia, or a whole mess of sashimi.

I love brussel sprouts, carrots, lima beans, okra, tomatoes, and all sorts of fruits and vegetables.
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Old 11-07-03, 06:01 PM   #28
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Trekrider, I didn't know you had such a witty humorous side.

Those are some answers I'll accept from the omnivore side.
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Old 11-07-03, 06:05 PM   #29
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Yeah, but can a pig fetch the paper? Also, how far do you think that Australian group would have gotten had their name been Three Pig Night?
Personality goes a long way...

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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega
So by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filty animal. Is that true?
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Originally Posted by Jules
We' have to be talkin' 'bout one charmin' mother****** pig.
I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?
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Old 11-13-03, 11:22 AM   #30
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I Agree with you gonesh9.

"Feelings or not, they are subhuman, and don't have the same basic rights."-WHOA! Please someone tell me this is a joke. Almost got me thinking of Nazi Germany 1939.
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Old 11-13-03, 12:25 PM   #31
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AndersK, I've been wondering where you've been.... You're one of my only veggie allies on these forums.

It really is sad how a lot of people seem to view animals.
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Old 11-13-03, 12:48 PM   #32
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Iīve been away for some time, but I have checked in every now and then.

Itīs important to discuss these matters. Even if there will be disagreements. But we must also be aware of the power of these philosophic discussions. People and will offend and get offended.

No point of arguing with people not able to understand the veggie-thing



But we can sure try
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Old 11-13-03, 12:54 PM   #33
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Dan said
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I do eat milk
Dan, Check the expiration date. I think it's been in the fridge too long!
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Old 11-13-03, 01:46 PM   #34
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my grandpa is a farmer (soy beans & corn) and one of his friends who raises pigs (in a pen the nice way) had a mild stroke and fell in with a sow which ate his arm,
so if pigs are as smart as 4 year olds we know where they stand politically. I'm also pretty sure that if my cat weighed 100 more pounds I would be on the menu, so outside of the whole feedlot cruelty issue i'll have mine medium rare. Is it a sign that we have to much time on our hands when we apply politics to the food chain?
Tell it to the families of all that people that starved last year. Another thing lets worry about the negatives of genetically engineered food when people stop dying from no food period. Hay Europe, is there any evidence that it is in any way harmfull anyway? One could say corn has been genetically engineered, just a slower method.
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Old 11-13-03, 04:49 PM   #35
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"Is it a sign that we have to much time on our hands when we apply politics to the food chain?"

Itīs thanks to this extra sparetime we can make the right decisions. We, unlike the animals, have the gift and capacity of thinking in moral terms. Lets use that gift not making suffering but good. How many would considering eating theire pet? Not many, right? Why then eat other animals? They have the same span of emotions our pets show. They have life experience like you and me. Why end that when not necessary?

This is facts. Pure facts. So lets grow out humanity to include the animals, our friends in life. Let them live!
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Old 11-13-03, 05:24 PM   #36
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I still do not see how morals apply to eating something our bodies were designed to eat (not exclusively of course). We are animals, we are omniverous, morals are relative, you can have yours I can have mine, actually, I don't think morals even exhist.
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Old 11-13-03, 05:37 PM   #37
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Morals are one of things we create to give life meaning. Having said that, I have a couple of organic rib eyes in the fridge for friday. Call me anything you want; you just don't call me late for dinner. Hey! well, you know what I mean
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Old 11-14-03, 09:52 AM   #38
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I read somewhere that you can't get vitamin B-12 naturally from non-animal sources. Any info on that?

I agree that the way many animals are treated is cruel. Also, it's a more efficient use of land to grow food for people instead of for animals which later become food for people.

Last night I was eating chicken and thinking, "This is a chicken's muscle tissue," and it made my appetite less. But, I got over it quickly.
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Old 11-14-03, 10:07 AM   #39
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I read somewhere that you can't get vitamin B-12 naturally from non-animal sources. Any info on that?
There is some truth to that, although not completely true. Back before modern agriculture methods were adopted, you got enough B-12 just from ground residue on vegetables. Remember, you're body only needs very minute amounts of B-12, and it is strored in the liver for up to 7 years. Now days even organic food is grown where the ground has been tainted by either previously chemical-ridden harvests or polution.

B-12 is still found in many mushrooms, and sea vegetables. Having said that, I do take a B-12 tablet that is made from extractions from these mushrooms and vegetables because pernisious anemia, or B-12 deficiancy, is very dangerous and can cause irreversable nerve damage.

Other than the current state of B-12, you can easily get everything you need to be healthy from an exclusively plant-based diet.
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Old 11-14-03, 10:26 AM   #40
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Hi LittleBigMan, havent seen you here for some time. I was wondering where you went.

Like gonesh9 wrote aboute B-12, there are some vegetables with this vitamin. I believe Iīve heard that broccoli is one of them and that darkgreen plants specially contain B-12. I have also used B-12 tablet for some time to be on the safe side.
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Old 11-14-03, 10:30 AM   #41
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I don't think morals even exhist.
Must be a great, meaningful life you live there.
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Old 11-14-03, 02:17 PM   #42
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Aint nuthin, being an agnostic, that's the same line I get from persons of faith

BTW what is your avitar a picture of, or where did it come from? I like it.
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Old 11-14-03, 02:30 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by gonesh9
There is some truth to that, although not completely true. Back before modern agriculture methods were adopted, you got enough B-12 just from ground residue on vegetables. Remember, you're body only needs very minute amounts of B-12, and it is strored in the liver for up to 7 years. Now days even organic food is grown where the ground has been tainted by either previously chemical-ridden harvests or polution.

B-12 is still found in many mushrooms, and sea vegetables. Having said that, I do take a B-12 tablet that is made from extractions from these mushrooms and vegetables because pernisious anemia, or B-12 deficiancy, is very dangerous and can cause irreversable nerve damage.

Other than the current state of B-12, you can easily get everything you need to be healthy from an exclusively plant-based diet.
If you can't get B-12, how about two servings of B-6?
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Old 11-14-03, 02:37 PM   #44
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Aint nuthin, being an agnostic, that's the same line I get from persons of faith
Yeah, I guess it's not my place to tell you how to live... sorry. I hate to sound the same as some religious zealot...

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BTW what is your avitar a picture of, or where did it come from? I like it.
It's a fractal I found on some website. Looks like trees. Fractal theories and visual representations interest me.

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If you can't get B-12, how about two servings of B-6?
I'm digging your recent foray into humor, Trekrider. You're not that bad after all.
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Old 11-14-03, 02:54 PM   #45
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wait a sec, your from Portland and like fractal theory, do you know Joe Ruskiewicz?
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Old 11-14-03, 02:59 PM   #46
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No, who's he? I don't do any formal fractal studying or anything, just interested....
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Old 11-14-03, 03:10 PM   #47
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Just a long shot I guess, he's a friend of mine from college, he worked at a software firm in Portland for a few years and is very into fractals, fiburnachi(sp?) numbers etc. Where ever he lives he gets around a lot and knows more than his fair share of people.
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Old 12-24-03, 02:35 AM   #48
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I think this thread is really interesting. Some have made mention of the "there are bigger problems to worry about" theory. I would like to point out that vegetarianism is more than an outgrowth of animal rights; it also involves environmentalism, human rights, and all that is politcal. I thin John Robbins says it best, so I have cut and pasted from one of his articles (you can find more at www.foodrevolution.org):

"If we look deeply, we will see that eating can be extremely violent. UNESCO tells us that every day, forty thousand children in the world die because of a lack of nutrition, of food. Every day, forty thousand children. And the amount of grain that we grow in the West is mostly used to feed our cattle. Eighty percent of the corn grown in this country is to feed the cattle to make meat. Ninety-five percent of the oats produced in this country is not for us to eat, but for the animals raised for food. According to this recent report that we received of all the agricultural land in the US, eighty-seven percent is used to raise animals for food. That is forty-five percent of the total land mass in the US.

More than half of all the water consumed in the US whole purpose is to raise animals for food. It takes 2500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. A totally vegetarian diet requires 300 gallons of water per day, while a meat-eating diet requires more than 4000 gallons of water per day.

Raising animals for food causes more water pollution than any other industry in the US because animals raised for food produce one hundred thirty times the excrement of the entire human population. It means 87,000 pounds per second. Much of the waste from factory farms and slaughter houses flows into streams and rivers, contaminating water sources.

Each vegetarian can save one acre of trees per year. More than 260 million acres of US forests have been cleared to grow crops to feed animals raised for meat. And another acre of trees disappears every eight seconds. The tropical rain forests are also being destroyed to create grazing land for cattle.

In the US, animals raised for food are fed more than eighty percent of the corn we grow and more than ninety-five percent of the oats. We are eating our country, we are eating our earth, we are eating our children."


What if those resources went to feeding the hungry? Even if you don't agree that animals deserve compassion (after all, we are animals too), its hard to argue that the world would be a cleaner, healthier, better fed place if we cut down meat consumption. And strokes to those of you choosing to buy organic/grass-fed/free-range/etc.

People tend to get apathetic when they believe that they cannot make a difference in the world. John Robbins has always inspired me. I believe I can make a difference and this is why I choose to be vegan. I have never made a better decesion, emotionally and physically.

Food for thought.
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Old 12-24-03, 10:06 AM   #49
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"we are eating our children."
Do they taste as good as chicken?
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Old 12-24-03, 10:25 AM   #50
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Do they taste as good as chicken?
mmm...chicken for dinner...
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