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  1. #1
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Mac talk...again


  2. #2
    Crushing souls Hickeydog's Avatar
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    and us Linux geeks are sitting back and watching the battle take place, knowing that we will come out on top eventually when both Windoze and Mac destroy each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post

    What's frightening is how coherent Hickey was in posting that.

  3. #3
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickeydog View Post
    and us Linux geeks are sitting back and watching the battle take place, knowing that we will come out on top eventually when both Windoze and Mac destroy each other.
    Apparently you're not reading digg, Ubuntu fanbois are making Linux users look just as bad.

  4. #4
    Senior Member hos13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickeydog View Post
    and us Linux geeks are sitting back and watching the battle take place, knowing that we will come out on top eventually when both Windoze and Mac destroy each other.
    I almost commented that same could be said for us linux users We will never shut up, just don't have funds to annoying.
    "Don't give up, don't ever give up" jimmyv

  5. #5
    Crushing souls Hickeydog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeWill View Post
    Apparently you're not reading digg, Ubuntu fanbois are making Linux users look just as bad.
    There will always be some bad apples....... Besides, Ubuntu isn't the only Linux OS. There has got to be at least 6 different versions for the desktop. I even had Linux on my Ipod.


    And no, I don't read digg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wordbiker View Post

    What's frightening is how coherent Hickey was in posting that.

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    This makes me wonder... there are tons of rabid Mac and Linux fanbois, but I have yet to see a foaming at the mouth Windows, Solaris, or AIX fanboi yet.

    I have yet to see a Solaris admin have a Sun logo tattooed on them, nor an AIX logo inked onto someone's skin. However, I've seen plenty of Apple tats, and penguin tats are not uncommon. Even the BSD daemon I've seen once or twice.
    Last edited by mlts22; 05-01-08 at 06:06 PM. Reason: clarity

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeWill View Post
    Apparently you're not reading digg, Ubuntu fanbois are making Linux users look just as bad.
    meh, ubuntu doesn't need fanbois to do that, its perfectly capable of doing that all on its own

  8. #8
    Pwnerer Wordbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlts22 View Post
    This makes me wonder... there are tons of rabid Mac and Linux fanbois, but I have yet to see a foaming at the mouth Windows, Solaris, or AIX fanboi yet.

    I have yet to see a Solaris admin have a Sun logo tattooed on them, nor an AIX logo inked onto someone's skin. However, I've seen plenty of Apple tats, and penguin tats are not uncommon. Even the BSD daemon I've seen once or twice.
    I have a Windows tat, but it's on my weiner so I can't show it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
    Ski, bike and wish I was gay.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Allen's Avatar
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    What's this, your fifth or sixth Mac thread?
    Pining away isn't going to help, just buy one already.
    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen
    I believe that in this case "solid meh" means "so 'meh' that it could never be anything more than 'meh', and yet also no less than 'meh' -- in a word, exactly 'meh'"

  10. #10
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickeydog View Post
    There will always be some bad apples....... Besides, Ubuntu isn't the only Linux OS. There has got to be at least 6 different versions for the desktop. I even had Linux on my Ipod.


    And no, I don't read digg.
    Yeah but they're the loudest and cause the most issue with ideas like "hijack your family's computer and replace it with Linux without asking".

  11. #11
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlts22 View Post
    This makes me wonder... there are tons of rabid Mac and Linux fanbois, but I have yet to see a foaming at the mouth Windows, Solaris, or AIX fanboi yet.

    I have yet to see a Solaris admin have a Sun logo tattooed on them, nor an AIX logo inked onto someone's skin. However, I've seen plenty of Apple tats, and penguin tats are not uncommon. Even the BSD daemon I've seen once or twice.



  12. #12
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    I personally never really quite understood the "battle" in the first place.

    The way I see this war is from this perspective: each OS has a personality, and it's up to the user to determine which personality best fits theirs. From the way I've seen it over the years I've been using Windows, Linux and (a bit of) Mac OS, this is what I've thought:

    Windows: Was designed to be purely productive, in all senses of that word. If it's going to meet that criteria that generally, it really cannot have a distinctive "soul" of its own, since it's out to support a vast diversity of people. After it (somewhat easily) became the household name for operating systems, that consequence only exacerbated itself, as evidenced by their challenge to create the vision for Windows Vista (which I think they did a good job of approaching). Put in short: anyone can use Windows, regardless for the reason or need.

    Mac OS: Mac OS was a different beast, though. Even from their hardware, it's apparent that their main goal is to be more "human." I would think that this was their aim ever since inception. Look at their Mac Classic, or 20th Anniversary Mac, or the iMac (for a more ubiquitous example). These machines were clearly designed to be more "lively." You can install Windows on (almost) any kind of PC, but you can't do the same for Mac OS. OS X built on this, and the only difference between that era and today's is that more people recognize Apple than ever before.

    However, OS X really isn't exactly for everyone. While OS X itself is a wonderful and solid operating system, it's not meant for everyone. You really can't expect a business road-warrior, for instance, to transition over to a Mac platform. They need to get stuff done, not have pretty machines. Apple has been getting more responsive about this, but I feel that, by culture, they will always put this crowd second to their target audience.

    GNU/Linux For those that even recognize this platform, it goes without saying: Linux isn't for everyone (yet). The idea was contemplated on a paradigm to be a hacker's free UNIX, and UNIX itself is not the most user-friendly system out there (other than OS X, which needed to do some major work to get it the way they wanted it). Even today on distributions such as Ubuntu, small errors and major updates (which should be seamless) can become long hours behind the console and, ultimately, lost productivity. I might feel great having set up my video card from scratch, but that feeling will get quenched quickly with work still outstanding.

    Sorry for the long post, but that's just my opinion from what I've noticed recently.
    Ride more.

    Code:
    $ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  13. #13
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    You are on to something:

    Windows is a workhorse of an OS. Its meant to be almost all things to all people. One list example:

    Windows has to be able to work as a high end server OS, and handle anything thrown at it, from fast repeated I/O for dynamic server pages and database transactions, to large I/O for SAP databases (SAP stores a lot of stuff in BLOBs/CLOBs and that takes a lot of big I/O pipes.) Windows has to work in clustered environments, perhaps with clusters replicating over slow links so if the main Austin data center is taken down by a fart lighting contest gone horribly wrong, the shop in Abilene can be the primary database failover.

    Windows also has to work in an insane amount of hardware. From tape drives that easily cost a million dollars down to USB flash drives, Windows has to support them, and support them 100%, with zero room for error. Add in all the USB devices out there (down to the USB powered urinal that sends a SNMP trap when the "dinner mint" is exhausted for someone to replace it), and that is a lot of code.

    Windows is open to all developers. This means one developer could follow all Windows logo guidelines and have an application that will pop up UAC once... and that is at install, and perhaps not even that if the user chooses to install the app in the user's home directory and not Program Files. Another developer could just write code that has to run as admin even if its just a text editor and pops up UAC often (until the user wises up and either runs the app from an elevated command prompt, or takes security risks and disables UAC.) Vista was plagued at first with poor programming of third party drivers, with the third parties blaming Microsoft when their code caused blue screens... even though Longhorn was in beta for years and the API changes virtually stamped on people's foreheads. Microsoft also doesn't control the hardware in any way that Windows runs on. Because of this, MS has to try to debug and code for a vastly wide array of platforms and have it work perfectly out of the box, every time.

    Yes, Microsoft has a Windows Logo program that if followed (simple stuff like using a standardized install procedure, signing your code so people know it was not altered, or just filling out fields in the executable metadata of who the heck made the executable in the first place.) However, not many companies follow these guidelines and try to store user data in the Program Files directory (which causes UAC to pop up.) The penalty for not following the guidelines isn't much... Microsoft can't pull an Authenticode key because someone decided that they want a manual install procedure rather than using the MSI database, or that the developer wants to write their user prefs under HKLM and not HKCU. Once Windows devs understand the root/user model (most seem still living in Windows 98-land where everything runs as admin), UAC pop ups will cease to be a nusiance for most people.

    On the other end of the scale, Windows has to work well for a novice home user who is not going do much more than just buy a PC from X-Mart, Best Buy, or a vend a goat machine, try connecting the cables as effectively as possible, hoping that the keyboard and mouse don't get crossed, turn it on, and expect it to work, and the OS to defend itself out of the box against attacks the second the machine is turned on and initalizes its TCP/IP stack. A lot of users don't know or care about firewalls, so MS's defaults have to be as secure and idiot resistant as possible.

    Other operating systems are not having to be this many functions for this many people. MacOS is mainly for the clientside, with some OS XS support that bundles some basic UNIX functions on a small to medium size company scale. Once you go past midsized businesses, you will rarely see racks upon racks of XServes configured as failover clusters for a high end database such as Oracle. I have seen a business convert totally to Macs on the server side, but that was because they were getting a great deal on hardware, their databases were on MySQL (which required a simple export and import to get up and running on the Macs), and they had the Mac expertise to deploy and maintain an OpenLDAP cluster for username/passwords. Because Apple rigidly controls the hardware MacOS runs on and rigidly controls what developers can and cannot do, compatibility problems are limited. As a developer, you program Apple's way, or you go away.

    Solaris and AIX are sort of the opposite. Instead of serving clients, they are high end operating systems made from essentially the ground up for security. Solaris 2.x was completely reengineered from the old SunOS 4.1.x because of security and other issues. AIX was originally made by a company called Interact, but over time, IBM rewrote the thing completely. Its extremely rare for someone to be using one of these operating systems for anything but high end computing, and the people who do run AIX machines at home tend to know what they are doing. These two operating systems have matured a lot over the years, and its extremely rare to hear of a remote root hole in either, compared to the days where you would see a hole in some Sun function almost weekly in the mid 90s. To slow down hackers, both AIX 6 and Solaris offer LPARS where you can separate a single machine into a number of different logical OS partitions for security reasons. Both Solaris and AIX are also limited in scope -- they run on known hardware (except for Solaris x86), and in general, developers program to the operating system.

    Linux is sort in the AIX/Solaris camp. People who use Linux on the desktop tend to know what they are doing for the most part, and Linux developers well understand the root/user model, so an app that would randomly demand root for no reason at all would not exist for long on the repositories. Linux also has an established interprocess communication model, so apps that have to run as root will have a user based process and a daemon running as root which will fork a child process and drop its privs the second it can.

    Security is an issue too. Windows is the prime target for hackers. One breach of thousands of boxes will make a bot-herder millions of dollars in hours (spam, DDoS extortion, cracking CAPTCHAS to make spam accounts, you name it) This makes Microsoft's job of keeping it secure very tough, not just out of the box, but day by day, making updates to address exploits and get the updates out fast (as the black hats have diff-like tools to find the exact hole MS patched and try to exploit it, hopefully nabbing unpatched boxes.) There are even attornies who are trying to patent MS patches so they can find a way to sue MS for every patch they put out.

    MS is in a not enviable situation. Users don't like Vista, companies are sticking with XP even with their next hardware refresh, perhaps only upgrading their servers to Windows Server 2008 (as it is arguably one of the best operating systems that MS has put out in a while), MS is on the #1 hit list for rogue governments, hackers, intel agencies, with thousands of people scrutinizing every single bit in the Windows OS to find a new exploit.

    Disclaimer: I'm not fanboi-ing MS, just trying to clarify one of the points. I also don't own stock in any company on this list except IBM.

  14. #14
    J E R S E Y S B E S T Jerseysbest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlts22 View Post
    This makes me wonder... there are tons of rabid Mac and Linux fanbois, but I have yet to see a foaming at the mouth Windows, Solaris, or AIX fanboi yet.

    I have yet to see a Solaris admin have a Sun logo tattooed on them, nor an AIX logo inked onto someone's skin. However, I've seen plenty of Apple tats, and penguin tats are not uncommon. Even the BSD daemon I've seen once or twice.
    A penguin tat, I can almost understand, but an Apple tat? It just proves how stupid some of these people are.
    Quote Originally Posted by SingingSabre View Post
    Cheating: a symptom of the problem.

  15. #15
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Users don't like Vista, companies are sticking with XP even with their next hardware refresh, perhaps only upgrading their servers to Windows Server 2008 (as it is arguably one of the best operating systems that MS has put out in a while)...
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. I used Windows Vista on my laptop for a while, and was happy with it until performance began to slow down to a crawl and Explorer would randomly fail several times a day. I switched to Windows Server 2008, and it was like the Vista Vista should have been. It's just as stable as Windows Server 2003, and much more reliable than Windows Vista. My disk is nowhere nearly pegged as much as it was when it was on Vista, but I'm going to say that this might do with the fact that Window Search technology is turned off by default.

    I really like your post. However, I also think that using an esoteric operating system such as Solaris makes for very good education about operating systems in general. These are very raw, very NOT user-friendly systems that show its bones in front of the user; there's no better way to learn about the innards of an OS but by this approach (unless you want to buy Tenenbaum's book on Operating System, which includes a SUPER-outdated Minix).
    Ride more.

    Code:
    $ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

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