Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Foo Off-Topic chit chat with no general subject.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-14-08, 01:21 AM   #1
ib4it
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tankless HWH Problems/Solutions

I have heard mostly positive tankless HWH stories.

There are drawbacks. Most of them can be dealt with or accepted.

The one that bothers me the most is: If you are taking a shower with an electric Tankless and the power goes off, even for a few seconds, you are in for quite a surprise.

Has anyone heard of a solution for this?
ib4it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 03:44 AM   #2
mlts22 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I want to know about tankless water heaters myself.

Titan (www.titanheater.com) has electric ones that don't require a special chimney flue for venting, while most of the competition requires venting... which I wonder about, as its not necessary for electric "tank" water heaters.
mlts22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 05:58 AM   #3
hos13
Senior Member
 
hos13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 552 LATA
Bikes: 2007 Mercier Sperns (I'm a shill) and a 99 Diamondback Invert
Posts: 781
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We had a thread about this a while back, this is one of the home improvements I would like to do also. I don't remember any negative about them during that thread.
hos13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 06:38 AM   #4
ib4it
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The problem that I am trying to solve is sudden power loss, resulting in nice warm water turning instantly turning into COLD water. It happens infrequently, but from what I understand it is such a traumatic experience that most people revert to the tank type heaters after the experience.
ib4it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 06:39 AM   #5
Little Darwin
The Improbable Bulk
 
Little Darwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 8,402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
The solution would be to install a generator/UPS system.
__________________
Slow Ride Cyclists of NEPA

People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Little Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 07:24 AM   #6
jsharr
You Know!? For Kids!
 
jsharr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Just NW of Richardson Bike Mart
Bikes: '05 Trek 1200 / '90 Trek 8000 / '? Falcon Europa
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Or go to a gas fired tankless heater and have UPS for the vent fans, etc.
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? Click here to register. It's free and only takes 27 seconds! Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorider View Post
Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.
jsharr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 08:26 AM   #7
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Once I can afford it, the plan is to to implement a solar and windpower backup system for the Casa de Wordbiker...for the exact reason the OP stated.

I'm also on a cistern for water. No power, no water pressure...same for the propane central furnace. I can't afford a huge system that would allow me to sell juice back to the juicemongers, but I'll sit in candlelight if I can take a hot shower and heat the house.

Oh, and accessing BF when the power goes out is just a side benefit.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 08:29 AM   #8
Caspar_s
Senior Member
 
Caspar_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Burlington, ON
Bikes: Giant Tcx1
Posts: 530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You have the power shutting down that often? Same solution as you have for your computer - a UPS. If you have such bad power problems, you already have one for your computer, right?

Our bathroom is pitch black in the middle of the day with no power (no window) so having a cold shower would be the least of my worries.

Most tankless are gas - some have electric ignition - but would still need a vent. All electric would not need a vent.

Thinking about this... maybe try putting an electric valve inline - power keeps it open, and if there is a failure it shuts the water off.
Caspar_s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 08:34 AM   #9
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caspar_s View Post
You have the power shutting down that often?
This past Winter we lost power about a half dozen times...once for nearly 3 days.

That's a long time to go without juice. The solar/windpower system would be charging batteries, so in effect...yes, a whole-house UPS. I also like the idea of reducing costs even when the grid is up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 10:29 AM   #10
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Bikes:
Posts: 7,649
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Even gas-fired tankless needs electricity to control it, at least that's what I was told when shopping for one. Our best bet was to hang it on the outside of our house w/ and put an outlet near where it was hung for it to be plugged into (code prohibits plugging it into an extension cord). Got to be too much like work to figure how to deal w/ it so we just got another gas-fired tank.

Last edited by HardyWeinberg; 05-14-08 at 11:07 AM.
HardyWeinberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 11:04 AM   #11
jsharr
You Know!? For Kids!
 
jsharr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Just NW of Richardson Bike Mart
Bikes: '05 Trek 1200 / '90 Trek 8000 / '? Falcon Europa
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Wow, just read this: http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Seems that is some situations, a homeowner could be responsible to the utility company having to upgrade their system due to the heater drawing enough power to cause lights to flicker in neighboring homes!
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? Click here to register. It's free and only takes 27 seconds! Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorider View Post
Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.
jsharr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 11:08 AM   #12
hos13
Senior Member
 
hos13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 552 LATA
Bikes: 2007 Mercier Sperns (I'm a shill) and a 99 Diamondback Invert
Posts: 781
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
Wow, just read this: http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Seems that is some situations, a homeowner could be responsible to the utility company having to upgrade their system due to the heater drawing enough power to cause lights to flicker in neighboring homes!
That reminds when I was in college, every time I used my microwave the breaker that powered our hall would trip. I didn't care
hos13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 11:08 AM   #13
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Bikes:
Posts: 7,649
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
Wow, just read this: http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Seems that is some situations, a homeowner could be responsible to the utility company having to upgrade their system due to the heater drawing enough power to cause lights to flicker in neighboring homes!
Wow. I can only imagine how that would work in our old neighborhood where we wound up putting a UPS on our telephone answering machine we got so tired of reprogramming the clock after the gazillions of daily mini-flickers. Maybe it was all just somebody down the hill with a tankless water heater all along!
HardyWeinberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-08, 11:15 AM   #14
jsharr
You Know!? For Kids!
 
jsharr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Just NW of Richardson Bike Mart
Bikes: '05 Trek 1200 / '90 Trek 8000 / '? Falcon Europa
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hos13 View Post
That reminds when I was in college, every time I used my microwave the breaker that powered our hall would trip. I didn't care
Sounds like you need a tankless electric water heater, pronto.
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? Click here to register. It's free and only takes 27 seconds! Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorider View Post
Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.
jsharr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 12:45 AM   #15
ib4it
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A battery back up would have to be like a whole house type system. These things take a lot of juice, at least twice the amount of a standard tank HWH and they typically have two 5500 watt elements in them.

I was thinking maybe some sort of tank or expanded water container between the shower and the heater. It wouldn't keep you in hot water but it would keep you from the instant comfortable 105 degree shower to 50 degree cold dose (a buffer of sorts) and conceivably back and forth. Done intentionally this is known as a form of torture, I don't think that it is even allowed under international law.

I was and still am really up on these but I think this problem must be addressed before I move forward, especially since I would like to do this on a large scale in multiple residences.
ib4it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 05:38 AM   #16
wfin2004
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Riverview, Florida
Bikes: Trek 4900
Posts: 1,137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The solution to the cold water from temporary power interruption is this: Shower valves (faucets) are now required to be "anti-scald" types. These were slowly brought into new construction after 1995. The anti scald device works as a balancing valve such as someone flushing a toilet while a person is in the shower. It also works the same way for a sudden lack of flow in the hot supply. Much more can be found by looking here:

http://www.hometips.com/cs-protected/guides/scald.html

This site is surely not the only one on the subject. PM me for specifics.
wfin2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 10:46 AM   #17
deraltekluge
Senior Member
 
deraltekluge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Bikes: Kona Cinder Cone, Sun EZ-3 AX
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had a tankless water heater when I lived in Germany in the 1980s. The idea was great, but the implementation was somewhat less than good. It took a certain water flow rate to turn on the heat, and the heat was all or nothing. On mine, that rate was somewhat too high, so that I had the choice of icy cold or scalding hot water in my shower. What I had to do to take a shower was turn on the hot water in the sink to keep the flow rate high enough to get the heater to turn on. Then, I could adjust the shower to a comfortable temperature. But that, of course, wasted water and negated the energy saving promised by the heater.
deraltekluge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 11:47 AM   #18
ajay677
Senior Member
 
ajay677's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: For the record, I am not now, nor have I ever been, an idiot.
Bikes:
Posts: 500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Most tankless water heaters are only capable of raising the water temperature a fixed amount. Does anyone living in an area where the inlet water temperature is quite low, say in the mid to upper 30s F, experience problems getting outlet fllow that is hot enough?
ajay677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 11:55 AM   #19
jsharr
You Know!? For Kids!
 
jsharr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Just NW of Richardson Bike Mart
Bikes: '05 Trek 1200 / '90 Trek 8000 / '? Falcon Europa
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
With low inlet temps, I believe one just installs a non heated storage tank in line before the heater. This storage tank allows incoming water to sit and come to room temp, decreasing the heating load on the tankless unit.
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? Click here to register. It's free and only takes 27 seconds! Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorider View Post
Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.
jsharr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 12:02 PM   #20
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My propane-fired tankless is based on flow, but I really don't see much hesitation before the water comes out hot. Maybe a second or two more compared to the conventional tank it replaced.

All I'd need is enough backup juice to operate the ignition electronics.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 12:12 PM   #21
ajay677
Senior Member
 
ajay677's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: For the record, I am not now, nor have I ever been, an idiot.
Bikes:
Posts: 500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
With low inlet temps, I believe one just installs a non heated storage tank in line before the heater. This storage tank allows incoming water to sit and come to room temp, decreasing the heating load on the tankless unit.
Of course. Thanks. Now I know what to do with the old water heater.
ajay677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-08, 11:53 PM   #22
FlyingAnchor
Senior Member
 
FlyingAnchor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Humboldt County Ca
Bikes: All Recumbent, Strada and TT Tour
Posts: 301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Check out Bosch tankless, I have one that has an inline pizo (sp) igniter. It is gas and I never have to worry about hot water. The pizo igniter automatically sparks as the water flows through the switch, no need to house power at all.

You can get large or small and that will take care of water flow problems. Mine only realistically covers one shower but with my house that works well for us.

I love my tankless, I have had it for about two years and it cost about $800.00 back then.

Steven
FlyingAnchor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-08, 08:23 AM   #23
apclassic9
Caustic Soccer Mom
 
apclassic9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Millstone WV
Bikes:
Posts: 1,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I live back in a "holler" in WV, and when the electricity goes out, it's usually out for hours - if not days. While we'll never freeze to death (free gas!), the electric pump for the water was a problem. We installed a Generac back-up generator a few years back (after the ice storm in '03 left us powerless for 9 days), which effectively solved the problem of water. We still use a regular tank water heater because out water is so hard it would clog up a tankless model in no time... so, if you're not on a water system, check your water before you make an expensive mistake!
__________________
As with mud, life, too, slides by.
apclassic9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:06 AM.