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  1. #1
    Banned wagathon's Avatar
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    Huh Oh ... Hybrids -- they don't make sense

    ... check out the math



    :
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  2. #2
    enginerd jeff^d's Avatar
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    After you check out the math, check out the spelling. It's even better.

  3. #3
    Senior Member SwimBike's Avatar
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    hybrids are "in" right now. Much better ways of saving the environment. heaven forbid someone rides a bike to pick up that movie or do small errands.

  4. #4
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Payoff on most hybrids right now is ridiculous. They do not make economic sense. The bigs one do not even make environmental sense. Nor does ethanol. If we would all just slow down to 55 mph, we could save tons of gas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  5. #5
    enginerd jeff^d's Avatar
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    Hybrid owners visit the pumps less often. Cutting down on a recurring event probably makes them feel better, and feel like they're saving more, than just buying a cheaper vehicle. It's a little disappointing that the math works out as it does. We're on the right track, but we're not there yet.

  6. #6
    Senior Member AnthonyG's Avatar
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    Yes while hybrids take quite a while to recoup their purchase price in fuel savings one fudge with that comparison is that its HIGHWAY milage only. Hybrids are at their best in town and regular petrol vehicles are at their worst so they have only made the comparison that favors the petrol vehicles. Who here ONLY drives on the highway?

    Regards, Anthony

  7. #7
    Chepooka StupidlyBrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff^d View Post
    After you check out the math, check out the spelling. It's even better.
    After the spelling, check the misstated "facts". 26mpg Grand Cherokee? More like 14 MPG highway.

  8. #8
    phony collective progress x136's Avatar
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    Blah blah blah. If someone wants to drive a hybrid, let 'em. I don't much care for them, but so what? To each their own.

  9. #9
    la vache fantôme phantomcow2's Avatar
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    Anthony G has it right: Hybrids, particularly the Prius system, offers the greatest advantage in city type driving. This is an instance where you might want to question the legitimacy of the source, and be reluctant to accept this as fact.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Bring back the Sig Test!


    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
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  11. #11
    la vache fantôme phantomcow2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    And yet another example of questionable statistics. Though, to be fair, the guy did correctly say at the end "It isn't what you drive, it's how you drive it -- that is everything".

    17mpg with a prius? He must have been doing a steady 100mph, because there is no way a prius will do as poorly as an SUV with raw fuel economy, even when flooring it. And, as has been said earlier in this thread, the prius has the advantage of less fuel consumed during acceleration. Try that test with a few laps around Boston.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Twas a joke
    Bring back the Sig Test!


    (\__/)
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  13. #13
    phony collective progress x136's Avatar
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    I watched that video a while back, and as I recall, they were driving the Prius as fast as it would go, with the M3 driver just matched that speed. Wide-open-throttle plays a number on the fuel economy of anything.

    Also, Top Gear is meant as entertainment.

  14. #14
    la vache fantôme phantomcow2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x136 View Post
    I watched that video a while back, and as I recall, they were driving the Prius as fast as it would go, with the M3 driver just matched that speed. Wide-open-throttle plays a number on the fuel economy of anything.

    Also, Top Gear is meant as entertainment.
    That would do it. The fuel economy savings of driving the M3 at that speed are probably negated by the additional speeding tickets the driver would likely accrue
    C://dos
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Not to mention the Beemers high cost.
    Bring back the Sig Test!


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  16. #16
    Footballus vita est iamlucky13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x136 View Post
    Blah blah blah. If someone wants to drive a hybrid, let 'em. I don't much care for them, but so what? To each their own.
    Absolutely. It's no skin off your nose for someone else to pay extra to be an early adopter. You might as well complain about the people who bought DVD players for $300, while the rest of us suffered the horror of rewinding VHS until DVD players dropped below $100.
    "The internet is a place where absolutely nothing happens. You need to take advantage of that." ~ Strong Bad

  17. #17
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
    Payoff on most hybrids right now is ridiculous. They do not make economic sense. The bigs one do not even make environmental sense. Nor does ethanol. If we would all just slow down to 55 mph, we could save tons of gas.
    Or ride your bike more.
    "Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."

  18. #18
    Banned wagathon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StupidlyBrave View Post
    After the spelling, check the misstated "facts". 26mpg Grand Cherokee? More like 14 MPG highway.
    That seems to match up with Highlander's mpg: 27 city / 25 highway (Jeep's 6.1L Hemi V8 is 11/ 14 --the V6 gets better ... and then, there's a diesel that's best with evein higher mileage).

    There are some articles about hybrid-popularity beginning to wane. And, apparently the claimed mileage isn't what it's cracked up to be, e.g.,

    "... Over the past year, the subject of real-world fuel economy from hybrid vehicles has seen heavy coverage in the mass media, including claims by vocal hybrid owners that they aren't able to meet EPA fuel economy regulations. For instance, a group of Honda Civic Hybrid owners is suing the automaker in California for publicizing the Hybrid's fuel economy ratings of 49 city, 51 highway.

    "The federal government's testing method for fuel economy is widely known to result in numbers higher than those achievable in real-world driving, especially for hybrid vehicles. However a new testing and calculation method being phased in for the 2008 model year will provide a more realistic estimate, with estimates falling an average of 12 percent in the city and eight percent on the highway ..."

  19. #19
    Cries on hills supton's Avatar
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    One of the traps one can fall into is comparing apples and oranges. Ie, comparing something like a Civic to a Jetta TDI. Two very different cars, and yes, per mile cost could favor the Civic. But the Jetta (at least when I bought one) is(was) quite different, and cost more for specific reasons, and a better comparasion is made with Jetta vs Accord. Similarly, I'm pretty sure that one buys a Civic/Prius hybrid over a Caliber for some very specific reasons.

    I'd agree otherwise, though: if one wants to minimize running costs, you have to look at the total picture. Me, when I wanted to buy the last car (and will do the same on the next one), I looked at depreciation, fuel cost per mile, maintance, and expected repair costs -- and then bought the car I wanted anyhow.

    Lastly, I think I estimated my commute to work at 80% spent at highway speeds or better. [45miles in 60 minutes or less, w/o exceeding 65mph, btw.] I think overall I am at about 90% highway in the car, as most weekend trips involve nothing but highway driving, in order to visit parents a state or two away. My wife and I have never had problems getting the highway mpg on our cars--under the old EPA rating.
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  20. #20
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    My wife and I did the math too, and when comparing the standard Honda Civic to the hybrid, we'd save an estimated $1200 over 5 years on gas, for an extra $5000 in cost up front.

    Now when the Aptera hits the market at 300mpg...
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  21. #21
    Senior Member
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    I wonder how much gas would be saved by replacing most stop signs with yield signs?
    sigless at the moment....

  22. #22
    Cries on hills supton's Avatar
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    Probably a fair amount. But you might lose out on the CO2 benefit--you'd have to cut down a fair amount of hedges/trees/etc surrounding intersections, so that visibility wouldn't be impaired.
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  23. #23
    Beer-fueled
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    Quote Originally Posted by supton View Post
    Probably a fair amount. But you might lose out on the CO2 benefit--you'd have to cut down a fair amount of hedges/trees/etc surrounding intersections, so that visibility wouldn't be impaired.
    Getting rid of stop signs = $; Limited/Impaired Sight-Distance signs = $ (you can't get rid of hills); cutting back bushes = $; purchasing right-of-way to make this feasible = $; cost to re-engineer roads = $; traffic studies of all intersections = $ + time; writing new codes to support this plan = time; enforcement of new codes = very, very, very ridiculously valuable time.

    Eg. too much time and too much money to give good returns in gas savings.

  24. #24
    GATC
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    buying new stuff to replace old stuff never makes environmental sense.

    That said, people never calculate 'payoff' on sofas or televisions, so why should they on other accessories like cars?

  25. #25
    Banned wagathon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
    buying new stuff to replace old stuff never makes environmental sense.

    That said, people never calculate 'payoff' on sofas or televisions, so why should they on other accessories like cars?
    Hybrid buyers never say, e.g., "I know I'm paying more per mile; just the reverse--they are making calculations. which apparently are erroneous."
    Last edited by wagathon; 07-13-08 at 12:24 PM.

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