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Old 07-24-08, 11:33 PM   #1
goldfishin
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SPOILERS! joker question

in the movie he says his dad cut his face. then he says he did it for his wife. was he lying or did he cut one side and his dad cut the other? or was he cut twice somehow (although that wouldn't make sense as his wife was supposed to have found him disgusting after he did it. how would she find him icky if he already had that issue?)
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Old 07-24-08, 11:40 PM   #2
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I was trying to observe him from the psychological point of view through out the entire movie. (Thank you soon-to-be psychology degree. )

He's a psychopath. (Duh') Symptoms that I saw:
  • Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
  • Impulse control problems
  • Irresponsibility
  • Pathological lying (BINGO!)
  • Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others
  • Deceitfulness/manipulativeness
These stood out to me while watching the film. I'm going to see it again so I can see if I can observe anything else and to, of course, enjoy the movie.
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Old 07-24-08, 11:46 PM   #3
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I got the sense he was making stuff up as he went along. I thought at first the biographical asides he made were lame, but then I saw what they were going for when they started conflicting and I really have to say kudos to the writing team for that. If only the rest of the movie had been as good as the Joker scenes.

I liked the Burton and Schumacher Batman movies, (with the exception of the last one,) very well, I saw what they where going for, and Batman has been around since the 1930's, so there;s plenty of material to mine. Still, this new, darker take on him is exactly the sort of stuff I grew up with, like "The Darknight Returns" and "The Killing Joke." Excellent stuff. The Watchmen trailer blew me away, though.
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Old 07-24-08, 11:51 PM   #4
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The Watchmen does look like a good movie.
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Old 07-24-08, 11:51 PM   #5
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What Ms. Gio said. Although I'm inclined to think the dad story is more likely...could also explain why he's THAT messed up.

WHY SO SERIOUS?

Dark Batman makes sense to me too for many reasons, which is kinda why I didn't buy George Clooney as Batman. Too...uh, pretty-boy, I guess? He made a great Bruce Wayne though. Val Kilmer made a great Batman but horrible Bruce Wayne. I don't think I've ever seen a portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne which highlights the difference between his two personas to my liking.
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Old 07-25-08, 01:25 AM   #6
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I was trying to observe him from the psychological point of view through out the entire movie. (Thank you soon-to-be psychology degree. )

He's a psychopath. (Duh') Symptoms that I saw:
  • Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
  • Impulse control problems
  • Irresponsibility
  • Pathological lying (BINGO!)
  • Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others
  • Deceitfulness/manipulativeness
These stood out to me while watching the film. I'm going to see it again so I can see if I can observe anything else and to, of course, enjoy the movie.
doesn't everyone do the 5th?
and most people do the 6th it seems.
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Old 07-25-08, 12:37 PM   #7
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doesn't everyone do the 5th?
and most people do the 6th it seems.
Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others

Think about this way, if you were to hurt someone would you feel remorse at all? Not a tiny bit?

I think the Joker didn't care what so ever.

Deceitfulness/manipulativeness

IMO, he does it to another level. Come on he manipulated his own men...
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Giodome: Several impostors enter, only the real one leaves?

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Old 07-25-08, 02:23 PM   #8
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Here's what I've come up with so far:

The first time the Joker tells the story, it's to that guy Gamble, who is threatening to "have [his] boy here rip [the Joker's] head off." In response to this threat of violence against him, the Joker tells a violent story about seeing his father kill his mother and then cut his face as a kid. Scared of Gamble much? Not likely.

The second time is when he's with Rachel at the party. He says she "look[s] nervous." He tells her a story about his wife, "beautiful; like you." While holding a knife to her face, he tells Rachel how his wife's face was cut up, but that he didn't care--he "just want[ed] to see her smile again," so he cut his own face with a razor.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the second story, but it seems that both times the Joker connected the situation he was in with the story in order to make himself seem unafraid and scary.

And then as he's about to kill Batman he asks "...do you know how I got these scars?" But he doesn't kill Batman, and he doesn't finish his story, either.

...perhaps?
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Old 07-25-08, 10:41 PM   #9
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I really wanted to hear what story he was gonna tell batman. that would have been interesting.

This darker style is great too.
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Old 07-26-08, 12:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ms.gio View Post
Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others

Think about this way, if you were to hurt someone would you feel remorse at all? Not a tiny bit?

I think the Joker didn't care what so ever.

Deceitfulness/manipulativeness

IMO, he does it to another level. Come on he manipulated his own men...
yeah, i know, but what if someone tries to shoot you and your just happen to be lucky enough to... well kill him by jamming a pen in his eye or something. suppose you just lived by a hair. would you feel remorse? i wonder if a solder feels remorse for killing a terrorist.
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Old 07-26-08, 12:19 AM   #11
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Here's what I've come up with so far:

The first time the Joker tells the story, it's to that guy Gamble, who is threatening to "have [his] boy here rip [the Joker's] head off." In response to this threat of violence against him, the Joker tells a violent story about seeing his father kill his mother and then cut his face as a kid. Scared of Gamble much? Not likely.

The second time is when he's with Rachel at the party. He says she "look[s] nervous." He tells her a story about his wife, "beautiful; like you." While holding a knife to her face, he tells Rachel how his wife's face was cut up, but that he didn't care--he "just want[ed] to see her smile again," so he cut his own face with a razor.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the second story, but it seems that both times the Joker connected the situation he was in with the story in order to make himself seem unafraid and scary.

And then as he's about to kill Batman he asks "...do you know how I got these scars?" But he doesn't kill Batman, and he doesn't finish his story, either.

...perhaps?

how do you know his act wasn't that of a man that had just been driven over the edge yet still had that whole mess of supposedly missing emotion swarming in the back of his head? it seems people go to violence and use mechanisms to "destroy" their fear when their ideals have been violated. are there sociopaths or people that have just had those things they hold dearest made useless? or had those things severly threatened?

you'd have to be born a sociopath, wouldn't you?

with his intelligence i kind of have to wonder what edge he went over.

oh, and that's cus batman jams razors in his head. i never noticed them when he was hanging though.


oh, and as for deceitfulness, isn't that prized within many armed forces. at least amongst their elite?
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Old 07-26-08, 12:26 AM   #12
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joker never had a canonical background.
there is a comic which is the beginning of joker, but I'm not sure that's canon.

Soldiers block out a lot of emotions while on the job. That's why some crack up. There are plenty of movies about a soldier's life based on live accounts and diaries, watch those.
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Old 07-26-08, 01:14 PM   #13
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...

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you'd have to be born a sociopath, wouldn't you?
It has been theorized that psychopaths are born with temperamental differences that would lead them to live lives of crime and violence while sociopaths are born with "normal" temperaments but sociological events throw them over the edge.

...

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oh, and as for deceitfulness, isn't that prized within many armed forces. at least amongst their elite?
I'm not going to even touch that comment.

I wonder where Tom because he has a degree in Psychology. I wonder what he thinks.
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Old 07-26-08, 02:53 PM   #14
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This is a total spoiler, but I hate how they did two face. Tommy Lee Jones was a bad ass two face. They overdid the effect on his face, they killed his actual character off way too fast, it doesn't coincide with the other stories of two face, etc. Honestly, the Joker was good, maybe a little overacted, but good. I seriously would not rate this as the best action film I've ever seen. I've seen better.
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Old 07-27-08, 05:28 PM   #15
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yeah, it would have been nice if he lived longer in ways, but the way they did him in the script made him more plausable IMO. he didn't seem like the kinda guy that would turn to crime as a job, but more like someone that just snapped. every iteration is different, why bother sticking to the same ole when you can have some fun with new?
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Old 07-28-08, 09:32 AM   #16
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The only thing I didn't like was....um...no, that movie was the greatest batman movie, nay, the greatest superhero movie ever.
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Old 07-28-08, 09:54 AM   #17
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The only thing I didn't like was....um...no, that movie was the greatest batman movie, nay, the greatest superhero movie ever.
I agree 10x over, it is and has become my all-time favorite. I thoroughly enjoy this direction with Batman, much more so than the originals... even happier that they are sticking to the same style from movie to movie.
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Old 07-28-08, 10:16 AM   #18
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I think the Joker was just making up whatever scary story would work to manipulate the particular person.
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Old 07-28-08, 10:36 AM   #19
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I think the Joker was just making up whatever scary story would work to manipulate the particular person.
I'd agree with that.

That was like a freakin' horror movie. It reminded me more of the new Texas Chainsaw Massacre than any of the older Batman movies.
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Old 07-28-08, 01:11 PM   #20
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I hated all of the Keaton-Clooney-Kilmer Batman movies. (I saw the first one in the cinema, the second on video, and I've caught enough of the third and fourth on the tube to dislike them.) I've really liked the last two, though. That said, it makes Heath Ledger's death even sadder because I don't think anyone will accept another actor in the role of the Joker after this performance.
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Old 07-28-08, 02:10 PM   #21
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Did Heath Ledger pass away before they finished filming? I was wondering if that's why Joker disappeared so quickly and the Two Face story started, or was that planned from the beginning?
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Old 07-28-08, 06:44 PM   #22
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Did Heath Ledger pass away before they finished filming? I was wondering if that's why Joker disappeared so quickly and the Two Face story started, or was that planned from the beginning?
All of Ledger's scenes were filmed before his passing; this wasn't like Brandon Lee in The Crow where they had to create the necessary footage. Some say that there's enough extra footage to insert him into a scene in the next movie (in a straitjacket in Arkham or something like that).

The story was just as much about Two Face and his descent into madness as it was about introducing the Joker. Harvey Dent was posthumously christened Gotham's White Knight; Batman had to become the Dark Knight.
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