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  1. #1
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Ok Microsoft. Let me get this straight...

    So, today we release Vista's SP2 beta. Beta testing should last until about April? Is that right? You want to have SP2 roll out in April.

    Ok. Fine. That's quick for a second service pack but it's needed.

    So now you are also going to start rolling out Windows 7 Beta DVD's? And it looks like you intend on distributing it to everyone on January 17th. Why is this already in beta? Every time you launch an OS you do it prematurely and this past time with Vista was probably the worse and most harmful to your company.

    Yet, with Vista's SP2 beta and Windows 7 beta being released, essentially at the same time, you are pushing for a manufacturing date of Windows 7 for june or july?

    Slow down M$, please give us an operating system that is worth a ****...please.

    And to be fair and balanced:

    This little gem is funny Apple deletes Mac antivirus suggestion

  2. #2
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    If you're trying to compare the Windows clusterfukc with Apple's contradictory advice on anti-virus software, keep reaching. It's good exercise.

  3. #3
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    With Windows 7, they explicitly stated that they wanted to get back to following their regular two-year release cycle to avoid the mismanagement that went into planning Windows Vista. With this said, they are just on time in releasing their first public beta. Just quickly thinking about it, most first OS betas from MS are released a year or so after the stable release. Do you remember Windows 2000 Beta? XP Beta? Longhorn?

    I was a bit wary about them releasing a public beta of Service Pack 2, but realizing that most people will not install it anyway (or have it pushed out through MS Update), it's actually a good idea. A lot of people were still not satisfied with Service Pack 1, and there were still more issues that needed attention. Keep in mind that they did the same thing for Windows XP SP2 and SP3; this is not unique.
    Ride more.

    Code:
    $ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  4. #4
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    If you're trying to compare the Windows clusterfukc with Apple's contradictory advice on anti-virus software, keep reaching. It's good exercise.
    Point missed.

    BTW, don't be too shortsighted. Windows is only as insecure as the user. Its security model may not be as robust as that used in a UNIX operating system, but a TON of the trojans/r00tkits/viruses released for Windows can only get through in the following ways:

    a) User intervention ("Click HERE to install" sort of thing),
    b) Weak security for the Administrator account (or no sandboxing),
    c) Low firewall security (the OS soft firewall is actually pretty good), or
    d) No antivirus/anti-spyware software (though a hardened installation of XP or Vista doesn't need one)
    Last edited by MrCrassic; 12-04-08 at 10:02 AM.
    Ride more.

    Code:
    $ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  5. #5
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    If you're trying to compare the Windows clusterfukc with Apple's contradictory advice on anti-virus software, keep reaching. It's good exercise.
    Nope, not at all. Apple has pumped out a good OS and their security by obscurity is working very well. What i find funny is that once their market share reaches a certain level (which i suspect it will), they will become every bit as vulnerable.

    Their current approach seems to be fueled by marketing more than by the IT people. If we don't discuss vulnerabilities, then people will think we have none and if people think we have none they will buy more machines. Most vulnerabilities these days come through browsers anyways. They shouldn't be so insecure.

    But no, this thread is more about how MS sucks, and if you want to make the claim that they suck harder than Apple, i couldn't disagree with you.

  6. #6
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    With Windows 7, they explicitly stated that they wanted to get back to following their regular two-year release cycle to avoid the mismanagement that went into planning Windows Vista. With this said, they are just on time in releasing their first public beta. Just quickly thinking about it, most first OS betas from MS are released a year or so after the stable release. Do you remember Windows 2000 Beta? XP Beta? Longhorn?

    I was a bit wary about them releasing a public beta of Service Pack 2, but realizing that most people will not install it anyway (or have it pushed out through MS Update), it's actually a good idea. A lot of people were still not satisfied with Service Pack 1, and there were still more issues that needed attention. Keep in mind that they did the same thing for Windows XP SP2 and SP3; this is not unique.
    Do you think XP was ready for release when it was?
    Do you think Vista was ready for release when it was?
    What makes you think that Windows 7 will be ready for release at the end of '09?

  7. #7
    Addicted to Pavement sickmtbnutcase's Avatar
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    Windows 7 is nothing more than Microsoft's Mojave Experiment on grander scale. They've heard how people/business will wait for 7, so they ramp up speed of delivery and everyone is just going to get a newer, maybe slightly better, version of Vista. Good move if you ask me - people are going to buy it.

    Timmy, good point though, definitely moving faster than we'd want to see from MS, but they're doing it since people are purposely waiting to avoid Vista. Again, we see marketing driving development at Microsoft. It's too bad.

    Disclaimer: I'm a reverse Mac switcher and Vista x64 has worked perfectly for me for just shy of a year now. I'd go back to a Mac, but the only system they offer that meets my needs is a Mac Pro (couldn't afford that unless I was Pcad) I can homebrew a good system for much, much less that meets my needs. A computer is nothing more than a tool.

  8. #8
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    A pox on all their houses, whether Windows or Linux. One is as bad as the other. Either way, you end up depending on some other organization to provide you with the OS and its updates.

    (1) You should not think of the operating system as being the computer itself, or as being of any importance other than to run programs on. As for choosing one, you're probably best just sticking with what came with the computer if you already have one, or choose the appropriate computer if you're buying a new one. But remember that the OS is not the medium.

    (2) Try to choose your programs in a way that makes you as independent of the OS as possible. Almost all common programs are cross-platform nowadays unless you intend to buy your programs (now there's something that's is really not necessary anymore!). Look at OpenOffice, Abiword, Gnumeric, MPlayer, VLC Player, Firefox, Thunderbird, Opera, FileZilla, Gimp... and so many others.

    (3) If you're into programming or scripting as a hobby or just for your own needs, choose a language that is crossplatform, like Python, maybe Rexx, or any of a great many open source solutions, from BASIC to LISP.

    (4) Even if you can't always do this, it pays to keep your text and files needs to being ordinary text files, so that you are independent of any future file format changes that programs might impose on you. Many people don't realize that they don't need OpenOffice or MS Office to write things. Write them as text files with no formatting as much as possible. You don't even need these programs to spell check your files.

    If you run your computer like this, you won't have to get into any arguments, and you can ignore those who do, plus, you won't be a slave to every whim of the people who provide the operating systems. You can just forget the OS (except for security updates, of course), and just work or play with whatever programs you want.

    At this point in time, if I was to buy a new computer, I would get a very generic one that can run a good Linux distribution such as Ubuntu. It's not that I prefer Linux as such, but it seems to be the lesser of 2 evils. But having to work with what I already have, which includes a problematic laptop, a scanner, etc., I just follow my own advice as above. I run the Windows XP that came with it because I need all the features of that laptop to work as intended, but I use Cygwin for almost all the work I do on it. It's kind of the best of both worlds.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    a) User intervention ("Click HERE to install" sort of thing),
    b) Weak security for the Administrator account (or no sandboxing),
    c) Low firewall security (the OS soft firewall is actually pretty good), or
    d) No antivirus/anti-spyware software (though a hardened installation of XP or Vista doesn't need one)

    I had all that and more. Followed several of the popular security guides as well as the guides published by the parent company I worked for. Made a simple typo in internet explorer and got infected with somthing nasty despite all of the above. Second time getting spyware within a year after buying my first laptop with xp, formated and switched to linux, never looked back.

  10. #10
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    Point missed.

    BTW, don't be too shortsighted. Windows is only as insecure as the user. Its security model may not be as robust as that used in a UNIX operating system, but a TON of the trojans/r00tkits/viruses released for Windows can only get through in the following ways:

    a) User intervention ("Click HERE to install" sort of thing),
    b) Weak security for the Administrator account (or no sandboxing),
    c) Low firewall security (the OS soft firewall is actually pretty good), or
    d) No antivirus/anti-spyware software (though a hardened installation of XP or Vista doesn't need one)
    You labor under the amazing delusion that 99.99% of the world is 1/10th as much of a computer geek as yourself. That's OK, sometimes I share similar delusions about my love for cycling.

  11. #11
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post
    But no, this thread is more about how MS sucks, and if you want to make the claim that they suck harder than Apple, i couldn't disagree with you.
    You're not kidding.

  12. #12
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    You labor under the amazing delusion that 99.99% of the world is 1/10th as much of a computer geek as yourself. That's OK, sometimes I share similar delusions about my love for cycling.
    Unfortunately i have to disagree with you. It's not difficult to avoid banners ads and pop ups that aren't legit. It isn't difficult to install and run spybot. It is difficult to have a clean system. What it is difficult to do is to convince the masses that this isn't difficult.

    Instead, what most people are are a bunch of whimpering little babies hiding in the corner of computer ignorance unable to take 10 mins to read about why their machine is running slow and how to fix/avoid it. Most those people go out and buy Macs
    (i should add that most of those people either go buy macs or they continue to whimper in the corner...you know, based on market share)

  13. #13
    Crankenstein bmclaughlin807's Avatar
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    Almost all of the problems that I've heard people having with Vista are due to one of two things

    1: underpowered hardware... Yes, Vista is a resource hog and if you want full Aero it's even more... but people buy a $600 laptop and expect it to deliver... not going to happen.

    2: Driver incompatibility... Yes, Microsoft changed the way the OS interacts with the drivers... no, not all hardware vendors were ready with Vista drivers when Vista released... So... either Microsoft sucks because there are no drivers, or Microsoft sucks for not maintaining backward compatibility.

    Whatever... the only issues I've had with Vista have all been hardware related... the OS works just fine.

    You really want to get down to comparing OS's??? How about 'ease of use' ... Take a program that is available for multiple operating systems and install, configure and use them... see what OS is easier.

    Let's take an example from my recent experience: VMWare server

    Windows experience: Download, install, use. No gotchas, no problems, nothing.
    Linux: Download... install... Run the configuration script... Everything is working wonderfully
    -Reboot.
    Uh-oh... nothing works. It says it's not configured. Re-run the configuration script... everything works.
    Two days later: Reboot. Nothing works. VMWare says it's not configured... What the... reconfigure. Everything works.

    Reboot. Nothing works.

    In the end I figured out that it was kernel updates... what the... they used to be disabled by default on CentOS, but they're not anymore. Reconfigure the host OS to disable kernel updates.

    Shut down the server... reboot... Guest os (Also linux) is hosed... it didn't shut down properly like it was supposed to... why? Because the VMWare tools ALSO have to be reconfigured every time there is a kernel update and without the tools installed/running, the host can't tell the guest OS to shut down. You have to disable kernel updates in the guest, as well.

    Fun stuff.

    Linux has come a LONG way, but it's not QUITE there yet for Joe Average... maybe soon.
    "There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson

  14. #14
    50000 Guatts of power 127.0.0.1's Avatar
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    vista sucks. period. end of discussion.

    whether Microsoft sucks or not ? get over it. it has the most widely adopted
    set of operating systems on earth. so....guess what sucks ?...not microsoft.

    they did screw up with Vista though. a lot.
    I like fat bikes
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  15. #15
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807 View Post

    1: underpowered hardware... Yes, Vista is a resource hog and if you want full Aero it's even more... but people buy a $600 laptop and expect it to deliver... not going to happen.
    I agree with this but i also argue that the system just has performance issues.

    I've got a C2D OC'ed to 3.3ghz
    4 gigs of ram
    loads of storage, of which the OS is on a 10,000rpm drive
    8800GTS video card

    And after a week, all that pretty stuff runs like crap. I had to turn it off.

  16. #16
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    vista sucks. period. end of discussion.

    whether Microsoft sucks or not ? get over it. it has the most widely adopted
    set of operating systems on earth. so....guess what sucks ?...not microsoft.

    they did screw up with Vista though. a lot.
    Brilliant business does not always equate to brilliant product.

  17. #17
    50000 Guatts of power 127.0.0.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post
    Brilliant business does not always equate to brilliant product.
    wrong. the software is brilliant because it works and runs a part every major business operation that
    matters worldwide and locally. there are lots of other companies writing OS's, Microsoft is the most
    widely adopted... and not by some trickery or smoke and mirrors. it is because the stuff works and gets stuff done. from mom and pop shops to Bank of China with over 3 million end user nodes and every country and government, science house, university...all the players. MOST of them all have it as part of the core infrastructure.

    solaris, redhat, macintosh are simply also-rans.


    get over it
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  18. #18
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    wrong. the software is brilliant because it works and runs a part every major business operation that
    matters worldwide and locally. there are lots of other companies writing OS's, Microsoft is the most
    widely adopted... and not by some trickery or smoke and mirrors. it is because the stuff works and gets stuff done. from mom and pop shops to Bank of China with over 3 million end user nodes and every country and government, science house, university...all the players. MOST of them all have it as part of the core infrastructure.

    solaris, redhat, macintosh are simply also-rans.


    get over it
    This isn't about enterprise solutions. We're talking about Joe the Average Computer User. And in that regard, the last couple of releases have been headaches from the start only getting better with time. If i wanted something that got better with age I would be into wine.

    Furthermore, Microsoft isn't what it is because of some brilliant programing. It's because it successfully got its foot in the door early. Bill wrote excellent software for its time and as a result he gained a massive foothold in the market. With that comes money and with that comes power, the power to develop something like Windows. But the problem is that for the money Joe the Plumber pays for an OS, it should not be as big of a headache as it is. Plain and simple.

    You are basing MS's worth on market share when market share is partly there because of...previous market share.

    When you're the first one in the game it takes a hell of a lot to get knocked down. Example: Ipod.

  19. #19
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    No software is ever complete upon release. This is why I never like to actually pay for a piece of software but rather the support for it, or the technicians to manage it.

  20. #20
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfmckenna View Post
    No software is ever complete upon release. This is why I never like to actually pay for a piece of software but rather the support for it, or the technicians to manage it.
    You're playing a game of semantics. No one expects "perfect" or "complete" but christ, how about a Vista System that doesn't stop working within two weeks. That was fixed with SP1 for me, but why did it require a patch in the first place?

  21. #21
    50000 Guatts of power 127.0.0.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post

    Furthermore, Microsoft isn't what it is because of some brilliant programing. It's because it successfully got its foot in the door early. Bill wrote excellent software for its time and as a result he gained a massive foothold in the market.

    can you contradict yourself some more please ?, it is the best laugh I've had in a while
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  22. #22
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post
    U
    i should add that most of those people either go buy macs
    Correct. And considering the fact that 95%+ of the world could give a **** about your computer weenie concerns, that's a big problem for a company that doesn't make idiot proof computers. Macs are arguably more idiot proof. Why do you think I like them?

    However you'll be happy to hear that my MS Bashing did result in the Bill Gates Entourage Database Crash, which was particularly baffling today (this happens every 15 months or so). Microsoft has stopped supporting my old version of Office for the Mac (mine dates from 2001).

    I relented and ordered the new full version today. No matter what happens MS makes money.* Later, through myriad tricks, upgrades, re-installs, etc., I was able to get the old software working again. I am a computer friggin GENIUS. No thanks to you nerds.

    *Remember, GM used to be the same way. Not any more eh?

  23. #23
    Gears? CliftonGK1's Avatar
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    Let's sum up both sides of the argument.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #24
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    Correct. And considering the fact that 95%+ of the world could give a **** about your computer weenie concerns, that's a big problem for a company that doesn't make idiot proof computers. Macs are arguably more idiot proof. Why do you think I like them?

    However you'll be happy to hear that my MS Bashing did result in the Bill Gates Entourage Database Crash, which was particularly baffling today (this happens every 15 months or so). Microsoft has stopped supporting my old version of Office for the Mac (mine dates from 2001).

    I relented and ordered the new full version today. No matter what happens MS makes money.* Later, through myriad tricks, upgrades, re-installs, etc., I was able to get the old software working again. I am a computer friggin GENIUS. No thanks to you nerds.

    *Remember, GM used to be the same way. Not any more eh?

    See, this is generally your problem old man. You think i have a vested interest Microsoft. I couldn't give two craps if they fall on their face.

  25. #25
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    can you contradict yourself some more please ?, it is the best laugh I've had in a while
    If you took the the time to read what i said you would realize there were no contradictions. I said that Bill Gates wrote some of the best software of his time. This gave him a foothold, one that his company still holds. Because of this they have the resources to pour millions into developing new software. Because of that the software is expensive as hell.

    What you pay, and what you get, don't equate. However, because of that brilliant software that was written back in the day, the foothold (ie 95% market share, 99% market share in enterprise environments) allows him to charge a lot for a crap piece of software because there is no other real choice.

    I can't wait until that market share is more spread among apple and MS and perhaps a couple other companies. Until then, i expect crap.

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