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    Look! My Spine! RubenX's Avatar
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    Java Sucks

    Right from the first release it had more bugs than a Microsoft operating system and it was slow as hell. All Java fanboys I've met keep talking about how easy it is and how much functionality comes already build into the language. But when the stuff breaks they still say "oh yeah, it's a bug in java that will be fixed on the next release".

    I used to hate C++ just as much, back when I was a C# fanboy. And I also hated C# when I was a BASIC fanboy. But still, IMHO, Java Sucks HARD and I'll never join the Java Fanboism.

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    Chepooka StupidlyBrave's Avatar
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    ?? ??

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    Senior Member FR4NCH1SE's Avatar
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    Java Programming sucks, not really but Its giving me a headache.
    "Every Man Dies, Not Every Man Really Lives".

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    Look! My Spine! RubenX's Avatar
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    And you know what? Is not just java. It's the whole SUN who sucks. Their racks suck, their servers suck (too friggin big), their logo sucks, solaris sucks... with the exception of open office (and even that is questionable) all their stuff sucks.

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    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenX View Post
    Right from the first release it had more bugs than a Microsoft operating system and it was slow as hell. All Java fanboys I've met keep talking about how easy it is and how much functionality comes already build into the language. But when the stuff breaks they still say "oh yeah, it's a bug in java that will be fixed on the next release".

    I used to hate C++ just as much, back when I was a C# fanboy. And I also hated C# when I was a BASIC fanboy. But still, IMHO, Java Sucks HARD and I'll never join the Java Fanboism.
    Java has its issues, but it isn't that bad. Back when it was really popular, it was A LOT easier to use than C++. Even though C# and the .NET langauges are around, Java is the only one (that's mainstream) that really provides a portable and clean OO framework.

    It's virtual machine design does make things slower (and programs more memory-intensive), but the fact that you can code something on Linux that's GUARANTEED to work exactly on Windows is invaluable. I think that one of the biggest reasons why companies are moving over to the .NETs is because most systems run on Windows anyway, and .NET is super compatible with the Windows SDK and its various APIs.

    C++ has a truckload of bugs, and it's super easy to cause a disastrous memory leak if you're not careful. Multi-threaded programming is a dance with the devil without a third party API like Boost, whereas Java has native support for it...

    Nonetheless, it's all about getting the right tool for the job. All of the mainstream languages have purposes somewhere.
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    Look! My Spine! RubenX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    .... C++ has a truckload of bugs, ....
    compiler?

    I sense deep javafanboism with this one...

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    Senior Member mustang1's Avatar
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    I know two types of programmers: one bunch have worked with C/C++, the other bunch have only worked with high level languages. The C guys always say the work they done with C helped them create better high level code coz they know what's going on under-the-hood. The high-level guys always deny this and say computers are powerful enough that all the manual resource management of low level languages doesn't matter any more.

    Go figure.
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    I agree- I could never get into Java. In terms of web apps I've never run into anything I can't do with AJAX that I would need to resort to Java to do. It's amazing that anyone uses Java on the web any more.

    Your users have to have Java installed on their system and Java apps tend to be pretty slow to load and initialize.

    You see it less and less these days however with AJAX (and other similar technologies) around.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubenX View Post
    Right from the first release it had more bugs than a Microsoft operating system and it was slow as hell. All Java fanboys I've met keep talking about how easy it is and how much functionality comes already build into the language. But when the stuff breaks they still say "oh yeah, it's a bug in java that will be fixed on the next release".

    I used to hate C++ just as much, back when I was a C# fanboy. And I also hated C# when I was a BASIC fanboy. But still, IMHO, Java Sucks HARD and I'll never join the Java Fanboism.

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    Chepooka StupidlyBrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmt074 View Post

    Your users have to have Java installed on their system and Java apps tend to be pretty slow to load and initialize.

    You see it less and less these days however with AJAX (and other similar technologies) around.
    This is actually quite incorrect. Java has moved to places it works (server side) and away from places it didn't (browsers).

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    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmt074 View Post
    I agree- I could never get into Java. In terms of web apps I've never run into anything I can't do with AJAX that I would need to resort to Java to do. It's amazing that anyone uses Java on the web any more.

    Your users have to have Java installed on their system and Java apps tend to be pretty slow to load and initialize.

    You see it less and less these days however with AJAX (and other similar technologies) around.
    Incorrect; computers are fast enough to run the JVM at almost native speed (except for critical number crunching, whose respective programs are always coded at the lowest or most efficient languages necessary). I do, however, agree that newer platforms, such as AJAX (Javascript/DHTML) and .NET, have mostly overtaken Java's utility on the web.

    Quote Originally Posted by mustang1 View Post
    I know two types of programmers: one bunch have worked with C/C++, the other bunch have only worked with high level languages. The C guys always say the work they done with C helped them create better high level code coz they know what's going on under-the-hood. The high-level guys always deny this and say computers are powerful enough that all the manual resource management of low level languages doesn't matter any more.

    Go figure.
    I highly agree with this. I've been coding with C for a few months now, and everything I've done with it (especially pointer arithmetic and memory management) has helped me gain incredible knowledge in how higher level languages work. People who start off on a high level language with the STL won't realize how easy they have it with strings. (If you wanted to grow or shrink a c-string in C, you had to use malloc(), realloc(), free(), calloc() and such, while being careful over [a] how much memory you expand the c-string space to, [b] making sure that the memory being expanded to is clear and [c] that you're managing memory *properly*.) Hell, converting stuff being binary and decimal is easier in C++ than C, but C provides the insight needed to understand the many ways it can be done. More importantly, C kind of forces the programmer to work on the computer's level, since one finds him or herself having to modify individual *bits* and even inserting assembly calls for better fine-tuning or performance.

    I *love* C...for low level stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubenX View Post
    compiler?

    I sense deep javafanboism with this one...
    Incorrect; I haven't developed with Java for at least a year. At the moment, I'm coding my school projects in C, and my work projects in VBScript.
    Ride more.

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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

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    Quote Originally Posted by StupidlyBrave View Post
    This is actually quite incorrect. Java has moved to places it works (server side) and away from places it didn't (browsers).
    Yes I was only thinking of the client-side of the world when I made that statement. Good point in that it is used as a server-side language as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenX View Post
    Right from the first release it had more bugs than a Microsoft operating system and it was slow as hell. All Java fanboys I've met keep talking about how easy it is and how much functionality comes already build into the language. But when the stuff breaks they still say "oh yeah, it's a bug in java that will be fixed on the next release".

    I used to hate C++ just as much, back when I was a C# fanboy. And I also hated C# when I was a BASIC fanboy. But still, IMHO, Java Sucks HARD and I'll never join the Java Fanboism.
    Sounds to me like you need to pick one and stop all the hate. All have their uses. The right tool for the right job.

    Personally, I like C# a lot, but have worked mostly in C/C++ for 15 or so years.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

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    Hey man, I LOVE coffee, whether it is mocha Java, Sumatran, Columbian...
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    Being full of crap and depositing it here consistently is really nothing to be proud of.

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    Footballus vita est iamlucky13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang1 View Post
    The high-level guys always deny this and say computers are powerful enough that all the manual resource management of low level languages doesn't matter any more.
    Those are the guys who make life miserable for users. Just because a full-size pickup can tow 12,000 pounds doesn't mean it's remotely sensible to drag that weight around all the time, especially if most of the weight is trash.

    I'm not saying Java is that bad, but the runtime environment is pretty heavy, and just-in-time compiling means long load times. I'm sure it's great for servers, but it's not very fun on desktops.
    "The internet is a place where absolutely nothing happens. You need to take advantage of that." ~ Strong Bad

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    On my TARDIScycle! KingTermite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    Those are the guys who make life miserable for users. Just because a full-size pickup can tow 12,000 pounds doesn't mean it's remotely sensible to drag that weight around all the time, especially if most of the weight is trash.

    I'm not saying Java is that bad, but the runtime environment is pretty heavy, and just-in-time compiling means long load times. I'm sure it's great for servers, but it's not very fun on desktops.
    +1000000000000

    Java is a nice language to code in, IMO, but when I created a simple window with a text box and a button it took 80 megabytes of memory when running. Something is WRONG with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

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    Don't forget that if a bunch of code runs in one VM, it may break in another. I had that bite me where something ran perfectly under OS X, but running the code under Windows or Linux, it just would not display properly.

    My trick with Java that worked a few years back before MS canned J#: Compile Java programs as .NET apps. Then, ironically, they worked and worked well.

    This isn't to say Java is bad. However, Sun missed the mark by not being able to deliver on video and other things which would have gotten Java back on webpages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenX View Post
    And you know what? Is not just java. It's the whole SUN who sucks. Their racks suck, their servers suck (too friggin big), their logo sucks, solaris sucks... with the exception of open office (and even that is questionable) all their stuff sucks.
    Uhh...SPARC is actually one of the best CPUs for numerical processing out there. Solaris is kind of weak, but their servers were actually quite nice, and still are for certain purposes.

    OpenOffice is okay, but not good in the face of Microsoft Office.
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

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    Squirrelly Member trsidn's Avatar
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    dang, I miss Fortran....
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Yet more proof that I'm.. well, pretty much right about everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trsidn View Post
    dang, I miss Fortran....
    Who wants to shoot first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    Those are the guys who make life miserable for users. Just because a full-size pickup can tow 12,000 pounds doesn't mean it's remotely sensible to drag that weight around all the time, especially if most of the weight is trash.

    I'm not saying Java is that bad, but the runtime environment is pretty heavy, and just-in-time compiling means long load times. I'm sure it's great for servers, but it's not very fun on desktops.
    Yup. They keep talking of the rest of the app running a lot quicker though. Also JIT is good when you want your program itself to generate new code. Wrt long load times, does Java have a pre-compile option?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModoVincere View Post
    Who wants to shoot first?
    Cocking the 12-gauge right now!!!!

    Fortran was the first language I ever had to play with.....killed me in the "Engineering Tools" class we had to learn it in (partly because teacher sucked). When I finished and understood it, I wondered it makes logical sense....how could they make the language itself easier to work in. Next semester I took Ada. I SAW how much easier it could be. Then I thought Ada made sense...how could they make it easier to work in. Then I took C.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

  22. #22
    Senior Member mustang1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post

    I highly agree with this. I've been coding with C for a few months now, and everything I've done with it (especially pointer arithmetic and memory management) has helped me gain incredible knowledge in how higher level languages work. [B]People who start off on a high level language with the STL won't realize how easy they have it with strings. (If you wanted to grow or shrink a c-string in C, you had to use malloc(), realloc(), free(), calloc() and such, while being careful over [a] how much memory you expand the c-string space to, making sure that the memory being expanded to is clear and [c] that you're managing memory *properly*.) Hell, converting stuff being binary and decimal is easier in C++ than C, but C provides the insight needed to understand the many ways it can be done. More importantly, C kind of forces the programmer to work on the computer's level, since one finds him or herself having to modify individual *bits* and even inserting assembly calls for better fine-tuning or performance.

    I *love* C...for low level stuff.
    Can this be done in C# using unsafe code where you can do your own memory management? Or is it not as abstract in C# as in C?
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    noob habals's Avatar
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    I do research on Java virtual machine and similar managed runtime. If you are sick of Sun's HotSpot JVM, use IBM J9 or Oracle JRockit. IBM J9 has more recent technologies and usually faster in multicore processors. When using Sun's HotSpot, don't forget to use -server option unless you are programming GUI apps. I think -server should be the default instead of -client.

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    GATC
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    I saw that the last java update told me it's going to update itself from now on. Hopefully that means I can stop telling it that I don't want that freaking yahoo toolbar.

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    noob habals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang1 View Post
    The high-level guys always deny this and say computers are powerful enough that all the manual resource management of low level languages doesn't matter any more.
    It was true when processors become faster every year.
    Nowadays, single-processor speed does not improve, and just the number of cores increase.
    Most JVMs are not scalable yet, so it sucks on multicores.
    I'd suggest mix C & Java and connect them with Java Native Interface (JNI).
    For low-level controlling and for performance critical part, you can write in C.
    Java is much more productive in writing & refactoring codes, and much more reliable than C.

    However, Java can be faster (in steady-state) than C because of run-time optimization.
    C compiler assumes lots of things, while JVM collects statistics and apply it for the optimization.
    That is why server applications are mostly developed in Java.

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