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Old 02-01-10, 05:15 AM   #1
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Crashing Toyotas

Today Toyota announces its solution for the unintended acceleration issues in many of its cars. After hemming and hawing with all this bullshlit about floor mats and pedals, hopefully they will do the right thing and install new electronic drive by wire electronic accelerator modules in all these cars (a massive expense to be sure). It is very likely that is the cause of this tragic problem. But if that is the case, it makes you wonder how easy that is to diagnose and fix.

By the way, the 'floor mat' solution? One of the fatal crashes in Texas (Toyota Avalon) that killed four people? The floor mats were in the trunk. So that wouldn't appear to be valid.
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Old 02-01-10, 07:34 AM   #2
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They are now saying it's a mechanical issue with the pedal. Let's hope they are correct.
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Old 02-01-10, 08:09 AM   #3
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A 30 minute install of a "precision cut" steel reinforcing plate. Really? Wonder what the cost would have been to install the plate from the factory? $1.00 per car? How many people have been killed so far by this? Murder by budget, what a unique corporate concept.
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Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.
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Old 02-01-10, 08:17 AM   #4
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Murder by budget, what a unique corporate concept.
I'm very sure this wasn't intentional to save money. More like an engineering issue they didn't discover until after the fact. That would be corporate suicide.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:12 AM   #5
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Sounds familiar...
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Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X... If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Its bizarre that the stuck throttle condition could slip through, you'd think that would be the one scenario that was specifically avoided and tested for.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:24 AM   #6
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A 30 minute install of a "precision cut" steel reinforcing plate. Really? Wonder what the cost would have been to install the plate from the factory? $1.00 per car? How many people have been killed so far by this? Murder by budget, what a unique corporate concept.
Its worked for Ford, GM, and Chryco for a long time. Why not for Toyota?
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Old 02-01-10, 09:28 AM   #7
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Its worked for Ford, GM, and Chryco for a long time. Why not for Toyota?
I rest my case. Those first three companies essentially DID commit corporate suicide.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:30 AM   #8
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Sounds familiar...

Its bizarre that the stuck throttle condition could slip through, you'd think that would be the one scenario that was specifically avoided and tested for.
Is it something that only shows up after a longer usage period? Sure, I'd like to think that all the parts on my car have been run though a "test to failure" scenario, but I'm sure that they have not.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:32 AM   #9
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Is it something that only shows up after a longer usage period? Sure, I'd like to think that all the parts on my car have been run though a "test to failure" scenario, but I'm sure that they have not.
Apparently. Wear and tear creates this sporadic condition.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:34 AM   #10
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I'd sooner buy a Toyota product than an Apple product.


just sayin'.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:49 AM   #11
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I'd sooner buy a Toyota product than an Apple product.


just sayin'.
is this now forum 293? cause that was most excellently done.
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Old 02-01-10, 10:16 AM   #12
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don't they have robots testing these things, and like how mnay times they can open and close a door before it fails?
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Old 02-01-10, 10:18 AM   #13
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i hear my mazda stock is up today.
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Old 02-01-10, 10:23 AM   #14
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Toyota is really screwing themselves over. They've been known for decades as the company that makes simple, practical (and sometimes even fun) cars that last forever no matter what you do to them, and have made money hand over fist on that well deserved reputation. Now it's luxo-barges, monster trucks, not a single sporty car ($350k LFA excepted), a look-at-me hybrid, and a single small, economical, simple car. Now with every cent of profit eked out, apparently at the expense of quality, longevity, and simplicity, they're running on a draining tank of reputation.
GM circa 1973
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Old 02-01-10, 10:26 AM   #15
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Toyota is really screwing themselves over. They've been known for decades as the company that makes simple, practical (and sometimes even fun) cars that last forever no matter what you do to them, and have made money hand over fist on that well deserved reputation. Now it's luxo-barges, monster trucks, not a single sporty car ($350k LFA excepted), a look-at-me hybrid, and a single small, economical, simple car. Now with every cent of profit eked out, apparently at the expense of quality, longevity, and simplicity, they're running on a draining tank of reputation.
I don't think the Prius is a look-at-me car at all. I think some people use it that way, but I think it's a new way of thinking about cars and I like that. It's certainly not the EV-1, but it's also a practical car for what most Americans want from a car.

This is a look-at-me hybrid.
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Old 02-01-10, 10:39 AM   #16
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It's an interesting vehicle, to be sure. Lots of technology, if that's your thing. But it's definitely a halo car. It's just not a hypercar halo of old.
There aren't any cars being produced right now that get good gas mileage except for hybrids. It's just the way it is. Sure, people talk about their old Civics that got similar or better economy, but you cannot buy a car that gets what hybrids do now. All of the other hybrids are at least a generation behind Toyota and are only in it because of what Toyota has brought. It's a car that you buy because you want to spend less at the pumps. It's a car you buy because it costs 90 bucks to go from CO to CA. It's a car you buy because it's roomy, safe, has plenty of power, and can haul more crap than you really think it can. It's also a car you can buy to make a statement, sure but you don't have to buy it strictly because of that.
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Old 02-01-10, 10:42 AM   #17
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Ford Escape Hybrid with it's 6 cyl engine is not really any better than my 4 cycl stick
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Old 02-01-10, 10:46 AM   #18
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There aren't any cars being produced right now that get good gas mileage except for hybrids. It's just the way it is. Sure, people talk about their old Civics that got similar or better economy, but you cannot buy a car that gets what hybrids do now. All of the other hybrids are at least a generation behind Toyota and are only in it because of what Toyota has brought. It's a car that you buy because you want to spend less at the pumps. It's a car you buy because it costs 90 bucks to go from CO to CA. It's a car you buy because it's roomy, safe, has plenty of power, and can haul more crap than you really think it can. It's also a car you can buy to make a statement, sure but you don't have to buy it strictly because of that.
Hello, TDI?
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-buy-7158.html
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Old 02-01-10, 11:05 AM   #19
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The new Jetta wagon, which is comparable in size to the new Prius gets a rated 30/41 while the Prius gets a rated 51/48. That's a pretty big difference in the city, where most people do their driving.
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Old 02-01-10, 11:09 AM   #20
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I'm very sure this wasn't intentional to save money. More like an engineering issue they didn't discover until after the fact. That would be corporate suicide.
Probably the case. And perhaps a process quality issue. I've worked for automotive suppliers and have seen cases where a worn machine tool results in parts that appear at a glance to be good, and maybe even they pass a proof test, but there is a flaw in the part that results in premature failure. This accelerator is particularly troubling to me because I've seen how aircraft and automotive companies work, and there's no way a critical component like an accelerator pedal would have a single point of failure in an aircraft design.

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Is it something that only shows up after a longer usage period? Sure, I'd like to think that all the parts on my car have been run though a "test to failure" scenario, but I'm sure that they have not.
Don't be so sure. I would bet that several dozen parts (enough to get statistical data) of each design are subjected to life test to failure and (depending on level of similarity to previous designs) full environmental testing. Additionally, the parts were probably mounted on full-up prototype/test cars that Toyota tested at the test track (possibly several- cold weather, warm weather, etc.)

My guess is that the root cause is not yet fully understood, but some action is required so they're just replacing all units of the new design with units of the old design that did not exhibit this issue. My other guess is that the company that makes the sensors will declare bankruptcy by the summer, especially if Toyota tries to push all the blame on them.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 02-01-10, 11:10 AM   #21
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Probably the case. And perhaps a process quality issue. I've worked for automotive suppliers and have seen cases where a worn machine tool results in parts that appear at a glance to be good, and maybe even they pass a proof test, but there is a flaw in the part that results in premature failure. This accelerator is particularly troubling to me because I've seen how aircraft and automotive companies work, and there's no way a critical component like an accelerator pedal would have a single point of failure in an aircraft design.



Don't be so sure. I would bet that several dozen parts (enough to get statistical data) of each design are subjected to life test to failure and (depending on level of similarity to previous designs) full environmental testing. Additionally, the parts were probably mounted on full-up prototype/test cars that Toyota tested at the test track (possibly several- cold weather, warm weather, etc.)

My guess is that the root cause is not yet fully understood, but some action is required so they're just replacing all units of the new design with units of the old design that did not exhibit this issue. My other guess is that the company that makes the sensors will declare bankruptcy by the summer, especially if Toyota tries to push all the blame on them.
What's an aircraft accelerator pedal?
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Old 02-01-10, 11:19 AM   #22
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i hear my mazda stock is up today.
The two big winners I see will be Ford and Hyundai.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 02-01-10, 11:21 AM   #23
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Don't this fancy shmancy fly by wire units have safeties that kick in when conflicting inputs are detected. For example driver slamming on brakes while throttle is engaged. Seems like the root cause is with electronics, which was uncovered by faulty acceleration pedal.
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Old 02-01-10, 11:31 AM   #24
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Don't this fancy shmancy fly by wire units have safeties that kick in when conflicting inputs are detected. For example driver slamming on brakes while throttle is engaged. Seems like the root cause is with electronics, which was uncovered by faulty acceleration pedal.
Most of the manufacturers do have an override, Toyota opted not to do it (it costs more money).
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Old 02-01-10, 11:47 AM   #25
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Most of the manufacturers do have an override, Toyota opted not to do it (it costs more money).
I guess they learned the hard way what cutting corners can cost.
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