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Old 10-08-10, 10:43 AM   #1
surgeonstone
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Cheating and the cheating cheaters who cheat.

I remember a day 25 years ago as a second year medical student when I witnessed several students cheating during a pathology exam. Maybe I was naive but I truly was shocked someone would cheat in medical school. I lost my concentration wondering at the mindset of a cheater, would they need this information in the future? Would they cheat during their residency training ? Would it ever stop? Would patients die from their ignorance?
Now I realize this current mess of probable cheating does not affect one in the same way but it does make the entire world of pro cycling seem less interesting to me. It just disgusts me, the probable truth behind the findings and the never-ending lies that follow.
I wonder again at the mindset of the cheater. Do they really value what they know is a lie? Do they feel proud of their dishonestly gained trophy? Pathetic scumbags.
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Old 10-08-10, 10:47 AM   #2
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They value the money. Whether someone else dies or in any way loses is of no concern to them. It is called being a sociopath. And yes, doctors, lawyers, professional athletes can be sociopaths.

So, did you turn in your other students? Or are they now working as doctors likely screwing up a surgical procedure on someone's mother?
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Old 10-08-10, 10:47 AM   #3
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Where are these cheaters now?
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Old 10-08-10, 10:47 AM   #4
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Old 10-08-10, 10:49 AM   #5
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Where are these cheaters now?
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Old 10-08-10, 10:49 AM   #6
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So, did you turn in your other students? Or are they now working as doctors likely screwing up a surgical procedure on someone's mother?
Good question and I am not proud of my answer...no, I did not.
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Old 10-08-10, 10:52 AM   #7
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Good question and I am not proud of my answer...no, I did not.
Cheaters cheat because they know they will likely not get caught. It takes a lot of people to look the other way. We are all responsible for holding others accountable. I am sure you are older and wiser now and would be the first to turn someone in for something like this.
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Old 10-08-10, 10:54 AM   #8
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It's kind of like politics - innocent people often give it a try, but in order to succeed, you have to sell out sooner or later. They all rationalize it as a practical reality, that everyone else does it and so it's the only way to even play the game, etc. Cycling has participants that do everything possible to gain a performance advantage - the right equipment, the right training, diet, coaching, etc. They also live out on the edge of their human capabilities and my guess is that when it comes time to dope or not dope, many of them feel like they have no choice and that they have too many years invested in their sport/profession to give up now. Just to be clear, I am NOT saying they are victims and I am NOT trying to justify their behavior. I'm merely trying to consider the context of their decision.
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Old 10-08-10, 10:57 AM   #9
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I found their hide-out!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ction/page1477
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Old 10-08-10, 10:57 AM   #10
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It's kind of like politics - innocent people often give it a try, but in order to succeed, you have to sell out sooner or later. They all rationalize it as a practical reality, that everyone else does it and so it's the only way to even play the game, etc. Cycling has participants that do everything possible to gain a performance advantage - the right equipment, the right training, diet, coaching, etc. They also live out on the edge of their human capabilities and my guess is that when it comes time to dope or not dope, many of them feel like they have no choice and that they have too many years invested in their sport/profession to give up now. Just to be clear, I am NOT saying they are victims and I am NOT trying to justify their behavior. I'm merely trying to consider the context of their decision.
Exactly. Everybody's doin' it.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:07 AM   #11
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I can honestly say I never cheated, I always had the opinion that the only one I was cheating was myself. Ethics and morals are more important than passing an exam or winning a race.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:30 AM   #12
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I can honestly say I never cheated, I always had the opinion that the only one I was cheating was myself. Ethics and morals are more important than passing an exam or winning a race.
I don't even think ethics or morals necessarily factor into it.

My sense is that cheating is bad, but that's not the reason I never did it. It's because it's only a temporary solution and ultimately undermines your ability to get things done. When you cheat, you deprive yourself of your true objectives as well as tools you need later. Celebrating something achieved by cheating is like trying to convince yourself you rode a fast century when you took an easy pace and a 40 mile shortcut.

Besides, there are enough idiots in the world already. The last thing we need is people who need to fake even that. I have no problem with people taking shortcuts that they're open about. But I won't work with cheats if I can avoid it.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:36 AM   #13
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hey I resemble that remark!
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Old 10-08-10, 11:38 AM   #14
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I don't even think ethics or morals necessarily factor into it.

My sense is that cheating is bad, but that's not the reason I never did it. It's because it's only a temporary solution and ultimately undermines your ability to get things done. When you cheat, you deprive yourself of your true objectives as well as tools you need later.
If we assume, for the sake of argument, that the field in any high profile pro race is completely doped, then a person wanting to participate in that event will see doping as a requirement and not as cheating. It's an alternate/parallel reality - they all say its clean and the public wants to believe it, but they all know the real truth and play by different rules. Again, not saying this is good or acceptable...
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Old 10-08-10, 11:44 AM   #15
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I don't even think ethics or morals necessarily factor into it.

My sense is that cheating is bad, but that's not the reason I never did it. It's because it's only a temporary solution and ultimately undermines your ability to get things done. When you cheat, you deprive yourself of your true objectives as well as tools you need later. Celebrating something achieved by cheating is like trying to convince yourself you rode a fast century when you took an easy pace and a 40 mile shortcut.

Besides, there are enough idiots in the world already. The last thing we need is people who need to fake even that. I have no problem with people taking shortcuts that they're open about. But I won't work with cheats if I can avoid it.

That sounds a lot like ethics and morals to me.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:49 AM   #16
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I don't even think ethics or morals necessarily factor into it.

My sense is that cheating is bad,.
That "sense" that it is bad is what I call ethics and morals and yeah, they have a lot to do with it.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:50 AM   #17
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I can honestly say I never cheated, I always had the opinion that the only one I was cheating was myself. Ethics and morals are more important than passing an exam or winning a race.
Correct!
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Old 10-08-10, 11:50 AM   #18
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Since cheating is cheating in regard to morals or ethics, it's still not road cycling material. Welcome to Foo from Road.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:59 AM   #19
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Now I realize this current mess of probable cheating does not affect one in the same way but it does make the entire world of pro cycling seem less interesting to me. It just disgusts me, the probable truth behind the findings and the never-ending lies that follow.
I wonder again at the mindset of the cheater. Do they really value what they know is a lie? Do they feel proud of their dishonestly gained trophy? Pathetic scumbags.

Personally I'm a little less judgemental about this than you seem to be. I'm not excusing those who break the rules, but I think one has to remember that the rules are quite arbitrary, and the lines that are drawn between the best possible nutrition and illegal supplementation, or between medication against injury and performance enhancing dope, are very fine and sometimes change. So it is pretty easy for me to see that sometimes the rules might not make much sense. Let's say I discovered that a particular combination of foodstuffs delivered a pronounced metabolic benefit and helped me increase lean muscle more rapidly. I wouldn't be cheating by eating those foods (they aren't on any banned list) and I wouldn't be under any obligation to tell others about what I'd found, or about what my diet was. But I would be gaining an advantage over them that wasn't down to my naturally superior talent, or to my working harder than them. Is the ethics of that really any different from doping? Or is doping not wrong in principle, but only because it's against the rules? And if the latter, wouldn't the easiest way to level the playing field be simply to change the rules?

As for the psychology, I don't think they believe they are being dishonest in any meaningful sense. In the first place, it's an arms race - he's doing it, it would be unfair and disadvantageous to me if I didn't do it too. In the second place, not all doping is obviously wrong. Using growth hormone to speed recovery from injury to a muscle, for example. Would that be cheating were it possible to manage the dosage so it only returned the muscle to where it was pre-injury, and was then discontinued? That would just be medicine, right? I wouldn't feel that was dishonest, I'd just feel I was getting back into competition as fast as possible. So the only thing wrong with it, again, is not a matter of principle but just of the application of an arbitrary rule.

I'm not in favour of cheating, but the issues here are not as clear-cut as some would like to believe.

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Old 10-08-10, 12:04 PM   #20
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If we assume, for the sake of argument, that the field in any high profile pro race is completely doped, then a person wanting to participate in that event will see doping as a requirement and not as cheating. It's an alternate/parallel reality - they all say its clean and the public wants to believe it, but they all know the real truth and play by different rules. Again, not saying this is good or acceptable...
Things get a bit fuzzier when you get into the realm of alternate realities. If the reality is that everyone's doping but they can't publicly admit it, there may be no harm in that, and it's actually a screw job if they crucify a few individuals for doing what everyone does.

I have no opinion of what constitutes cheating in professional sports. It's just entertainment, and frankly I don't care what they do. On the rare occasions when I watch, I want to see good competition. If a team wins through a technicality or by sitting on the ball, I see nothing worth celebrating.


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That sounds a lot like ethics and morals to me.
Not really. Do you want a doc working on you who had to cheat his way through medical school? Do you want that computer program that your business depends on for its survival to be written by someone who couldn't do the same work as everyone else? Would you trust your life to antilock braking systems designed by people who couldn't even understand the stuff that was already designed when they were learning? It's a very practical problem.

Professionals who cheat are not competent to perform at the level they want others to believe, plain and simple. I've encountered people in high level positions with abysmal knowledge of their own domain, and presume most other people here have as well. I seek people who I can learn from and who will help me be better at what I do. No one's going to learn much from someone who's not up to scratch.
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Old 10-08-10, 12:07 PM   #21
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That "sense" that it is bad is what I call ethics and morals and yeah, they have a lot to do with it.
Yes and no. Deception can be a moral issue, but it doesn't have to be. Acting on beliefs that aren't true (i.e. the inevitable result of deception) causes practical problems for both the deceiver and the deceived.
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Old 10-08-10, 12:16 PM   #22
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Personally I'm a little less judgemental about this than you seem to be. wouldn't the easiest way to level the playing field be simply to change the rules?..........................................................................
I'm not in favour of cheating, but the issues here are not as clear-cut as some would like to believe.
Yeah, really you are in favor of cheating as you fail to be able to distinguish right from wrong.
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Old 10-08-10, 12:40 PM   #23
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When I was in college I saw a friend of mine cheat in an exam when the professor wasn't looking. He basically looked at the exam paper of another friend (while she was horrified that the professor might see them both.)

Somehow, my perfection of that friend was changed and I was never too warm of him after that.
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Old 10-08-10, 12:48 PM   #24
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Let's say I discovered that a particular combination of foodstuffs delivered a pronounced metabolic benefit and helped me increase lean muscle more rapidly. I wouldn't be cheating by eating those foods (they aren't on any banned list) and I wouldn't be under any obligation to tell others about what I'd found, or about what my diet was. But I would be gaining an advantage over them that wasn't down to my naturally superior talent, or to my working harder than them. Is the ethics of that really any different from doping?
I agree with much of what you say about the ambiguities and gray areas, but not the section I have quoted. There is a distinction between eating food and taking drugs, and just because they both go through our mouths doesn't mean they are the same. Moreover, that others haven't discovered the magical mixture of food does indeed give you an advantage, but it's a fair advantage - they are free to discover that mixture themselves, or even a better one. It's important to remember that it's not a win-at-all-costs sport, otherwise it would be legal to physically knock over competitors, etc.
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Old 10-08-10, 01:00 PM   #25
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I copied this response from another poster's computer.
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