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Old 03-02-11, 12:47 PM   #1
UnsafeAlpine
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Infrastructure and energy (split from Beautiful Cars)

The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.

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Old 03-02-11, 12:53 PM   #2
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The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.
Day and a half through 110. 45 min quick charge with 220 and wall unit capacitor.
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Old 03-02-11, 01:05 PM   #3
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Day and a half through 110. 45 min quick charge with 220 and wall unit capacitor.
Ah. They aren't technically lying, it's just the way the ad is written.

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Choose from one of three battery pack options to suit typical driving needs: 160, 230, or 300 miles per charge. Concerned with Range Anxiety? Like the Roadster, the Model S is engineered to plug into nearly any outlet, anywhere in the world. With the ability to recharge in 45 minutes, the car begs to be driven everywhere you want to go.
Cool car but the major drawback to all electric is the minimal range. It's nice to see Tesla trying to do something about it but the infrastructure isn't quite there yet.
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Old 03-02-11, 01:09 PM   #4
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We've had the infrastructure before. Back in the Baker Electric days New York had charging stations all over the place.
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Old 03-02-11, 01:17 PM   #5
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We've had the infrastructure before. Back in the Baker Electric days New York had charging stations all over the place.
Electric was set to be the fuel of choice for autos at the turn of the previous century. It's too bad that didn't happen.
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Old 03-02-11, 03:18 PM   #6
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What's really too bad is that we put all our eggs (or all of our eggs were put) in one basket. If we'd gone pure electric a hundred years ago, our situation wouldn't be much different today. Tens/hundreds of millions of cars all drawing a full charge every day? Ouch. We'd be much better off today if we'd continued on the course of multiple fuel options. Competition not only amongst manufacturers, but different engine types, drivetrains, coachwork...

Of course, had driving stayed a more difficult/expensive activity and we built our cities and infrastructure intelligently so that motorized transport wasn't absolutely necessary for the majority of people, it would've been better still.
are you actually being logical? in foo? Don't make me report you!
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Old 03-02-11, 05:40 PM   #7
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I'll chop you up in little bits, melt you down in a vat of hyperbolic acid, feed you to ladybugs, and flush the ladybugs down the toilet. DON'T MESS WITH ME.
This sounds like a normal day for me....are you gonna tickle my feet too?
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Old 03-02-11, 05:49 PM   #8
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What's really too bad is that we put all our eggs (or all of our eggs were put) in one basket. If we'd gone pure electric a hundred years ago, our situation wouldn't be much different today. Tens/hundreds of millions of cars all drawing a full charge every day? Ouch. We'd be much better off today if we'd continued on the course of multiple fuel options. Competition not only amongst manufacturers, but different engine types, drivetrains, coachwork...

Of course, had driving stayed a more difficult/expensive activity and we built our cities and infrastructure intelligently so that motorized transport wasn't absolutely necessary for the majority of people, it would've been better still.
Actually we'd be much better off having gone electric. Look at the actual cost of the electricity required to charge an electric car , versus the cost to fill aguess. You're talking literally pennies on the dollar.
And when you consider how much money and fuel is spent shipping the fuel to other parts of the world then our electrical grid would probably be in better condition because we'd have probably learned to scale it out a bit better to handle the demand that big cities require.
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Old 03-02-11, 05:52 PM   #9
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Actually we'd be much better off having gone electric. Look at the actual cost of the electricity required to charge an electric car , versus the cost to fill aguess. You're talking literally pennies on the dollar.
And when you consider how much money and fuel is spent shipping the fuel to other parts of the world then our electrical grid would probably be in better condition because we'd have probably learned to scale it out a bit better to handle the demand that big cities require.
Having worked in planning dept. for a utility company, no we wouldn't be better off. The grid is already in need of major upgrades. Most areas need to add more generating capacity as is, to handle current loads. Coal is not clean. Nuclear is not wanted by most, and it takes a long time to build....then you have to decommission it. Electric cars will overwhelm the current grid when everyone gets home and plugs in.
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Old 03-02-11, 05:55 PM   #10
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Having worked in planning dept. for a utility company, no we wouldn't be better off. The grid is already in need of major upgrades. Most areas need to add more generating capacity as is, to handle current loads. Coal is not clean. Nuclear is not wanted by most, and it takes a long time to build....then you have to decommission it. Electric cars will overwhelm the current grid when everyone gets home and plugs in.
Which means that we would have been forced to solve the problem, that we have to solve in the next half a decade / decade, now or a decade ago.

We've put off the problem for a good while because we've not had to.

But in the long run, electricity is WAY MORE efficient for vehicles. It's crazy just how much more efficient it is, even when you're using gasoline to generate it.
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Old 03-02-11, 05:57 PM   #11
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Which means that we would have been forced to solve the problem, that we have to solve in the next half a decade / decade, now or a decade ago.

We've put off the problem for a good while because we've not had to.

But in the long run, electricity is WAY MORE efficient for vehicles. It's crazy just how much more efficient it is, even when you're using gasoline to generate it.
And honestly, from what I've seen, most people could actually throw a solar panel or 2 on their house to pay for their electric car. Rembembring that most people drive approximately 40 miles in a day max. Combined with the potential of 20 years ago actually bringing the concept/idea of more point-of-use generation of electricity to regular people, I think would have had longer lasting effects.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:00 PM   #12
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And honestly, from what I've seen most people could actually throw a solar panel or 2 on their house to pay for their car so the potential to 20 years ago having been bringing the idea of more point-of-use generation of electricity I think would have had longer lasting effects.
Solar panel efficiency is an issue we haven't really mastered yet.
In addition, what do you do when its cloudy? A lot of places don't get enough sunlight for 6 months or more for SP's to be worthwhile.
The best solution is one that provides multiple answers, as much as it pains me to agree with X.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:10 PM   #13
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Solar panel efficiency is an issue we haven't really mastered yet.
In addition, what do you do when its cloudy? A lot of places don't get enough sunlight for 6 months or more for SP's to be worthwhile.
The best solution is one that provides multiple answers, as much as it pains me to agree with X.
I agree with multiple solutions, but it doesn't always have to be that answer, or solutions for that problem. Like i said- if you look at how little electricity electric cars actually use. You can throw 1-4 solar panels on everybody's house and throughout the year they get enough sunlight to offset the whole city's electric car drain.

Not to mention most of our grid problems are man-created problems that are pretty much have the same source as why we use gasoline. Greed and Money. There's more money to be made with gasoline then there is with solar powered water heaters (which usually cut 1/3 of non-A/C related bills) or electric cars which are far simpler machines and are 2-4 times more efficient depending upon how much idling you end up doing in the city. And a large portion of A/C electric bills could be cut down with properly built houses.

The problem with having multiple fuels is pretty much the same problem we have with Diesel and Gas and is the one reason why the Volt could be the biggest winner.
There are some gas stations here where there are no diesel pumps. If you need Diesel you need to go to a different gas station. It costs lots of money shipping any type of fuel from it's source. Having multiple types of fuel drastically increases the overhead and inefficiency of fuel distribution. It also greatly confuses the customer because and puts a large burden on an already dumb customer base. What fuel does my car need and where can I find it. Will I be able to find it if I go on a trip to abc.

The volt is probably the best winner on the transition from gas to electric because you use electric and when you're out of your 40 mile range and have not had time to charge up you switch over to gas. An infrastructure that already exists all around the world.
Hydrogen? There's probably what 200 Hydrogen refueling stations around the US if that many. Most concentrated in very select regions. Methane? Propane? Vegetable Oil ?

It really is a human problem.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:12 PM   #14
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Well, the one thing we can probably agree on is HPV's.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:15 PM   #15
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Human Pappillion Virus?
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Old 03-02-11, 06:26 PM   #16
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That's extra.

Possibly, but TANSTAAFL. The electricity would still have to come from somewhere, fueled by something, polluting somewhere, costing some amount.

It's possible that our electricity delivery infrastructure would be better, but it might've ended up just as cobbled together and on the brink of failure as it is today, just more of it. Or it'd be better, but way more expensive to cover the costs of upkeep and upgrades.

In the end, a system of transportational affluence that ends up looking like ours does currently is going to cost a lot (and not only monetarily) no matter what's turning the wheels.
You've obviously never looked at the amount of energy expent drilling oil a mile or so below the surface of the earth, shipped from half around the world via a ship, sent to a refinery where it's refined for consumption, shipped to a holding center and then delivered to a gas station near you so that you may expend fuel to get it.

Looking at the massive engine efficiency that electricity has over your gas engine and then looking at the massive lack of fuel required to deliver said fuel around the world I think it's safe to say several things.

1) In the long run electricity is way more efficient.
2) We'd have solved, nearly solved and thought out a lot of things a tad differently from a technological and infrastructure point of view. Being faced with the problems we're now facing today a bit earlier. Building infrastructure in-mind that it's going to have to do this.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if you did the math and found that replacing a majority of the water heaters below xyz latitutde with solar water haters would more than counterbalance the drain that electric cars would have on our infrastructure. Electric cars run for 30-60 minutes. When you're idling in traffic you're not actually idling - that's an ICE concept. Your water heater runs for a lot more than that.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:28 PM   #17
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oh....a blue star attack again.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:29 PM   #18
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The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.
Result of several Major breakthrough s that MIT has made with quick-charge lithium batteries. There's a few articles floating around the net. The technology is slowly starting to trickle down to other things and getting worked on by other people. Naturally patents and what not will initially hinder some development but once the concept is out there other companies can start tackling it as the demand for it inreases.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:33 PM   #19
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You've obviously never looked at the amount of energy expent drilling oil a mile or so below the surface of the earth, shipped from half around the world via a ship, sent to a refinery where it's refined for consumption, shipped to a holding center and then delivered to a gas station near you so that you may expend fuel to get it.

Looking at the massive engine efficiency that electricity has over your gas engine and then looking at the massive lack of fuel required to deliver said fuel around the world I think it's safe to say several things.

1) In the long run electricity is way more efficient.
2) We'd have solved, nearly solved and thought out a lot of things a tad differently from a technological and infrastructure point of view. Being faced with the problems we're now facing today a bit earlier. Building infrastructure in-mind that it's going to have to do this.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if you did the math and found that replacing a majority of the water heaters below xyz latitutde with solar water haters would more than counterbalance the drain that electric cars would have on our infrastructure. Electric cars run for 30-60 minutes. When you're idling in traffic you're not actually idling - that's an ICE concept. Your water heater runs for a lot more than that.
As I said, coal is very dirty. It takes energy to remove coal from the ground, ship it to the electric generating facilities (diesel trains), and we would need a lot more of it then we currently use. An all electric car society sounds great, till one realizes what it really means.

Nuclear would require add'l reactors....and more uranium. Reactors come with their own set of issues (3 mile island, Chernobyl, etc.). Uranium mining is ugly, nasty stuff. Worse then coal in some aspects. Then of course there's the disposal issue. We don't have a place to store all of the spent uranium and plutonium we already have. Add more? Nightmare!

Natural Gas can be used during peak times (turbines can be brought up in 15 or so minutes). Its not too bad enviornmentally, till you realize its generally collected the same way oil is, and often times with oil.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:37 PM   #20
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Old 03-02-11, 06:47 PM   #21
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Now that would be sweet!
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Old 03-02-11, 06:56 PM   #22
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pushing an attitude that the world is fixed by replacing your two year old car with a Prius and recycling your bottled water bottles.
+5000

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 03-02-11, 06:57 PM   #23
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I think Mazda has a concept vehicle that eliminates the drivetrain. Instead puts 4 tiny electric motors attached to each wheel.

Quite ingenious. Lets you eliminate the transmission (which you can actually do with a lot of electric cars) but can eliminate the drivetrain. Think they said that's a near 10% efficiency increase right there.
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Old 03-02-11, 07:24 PM   #24
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I think Mazda has a concept vehicle that eliminates the drivetrain. Instead puts 4 tiny electric motors attached to each wheel.

Quite ingenious. Lets you eliminate the transmission (which you can actually do with a lot of electric cars) but can eliminate the drivetrain. Think they said that's a near 10% efficiency increase right there.
You'll still need half shafts, they could never mount motors to the suspension knuckle on a real road going car, too much unsprung weight.
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Old 03-02-11, 07:47 PM   #25
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I'm so glad I started this thread.
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