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    genec genec's Avatar
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    So what exactly is the deal with "the cloud?"

    As I understand it the cloud is just a file server that you may also be able to run processes on... something we called "the mainframe back in the late '70s or early '80s. Yeah you could save files on it, you could run batch processes on it... then we came up with the personal computer... apple or ibm... suddenly you were saving files locally on your 10meg HD, and running your processes locally.

    Then HD capacity increased at a nice clip... but you had to do your own backups... and everyone feared the HD crash.

    Now the cloud appears... which near as I can tell is just a return back to mainframe servers hidden in some closet somewhere... just like the old days.

    So is the cloud just a return to mainframes?

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    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    not quite mainframe....but similar.....it definitely mirrors the older client server setups.
    From an IT pov...there's only one version of a software to update. Everyone is reading the same files. Everyone is writing to the same files ("one version of the truth").
    Where it falls down is if there is an outage....everyone is screwed then.

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModoVincere View Post
    not quite mainframe....but similar.....it definitely mirrors the older client server setups.
    From an IT pov...there's only one version of a software to update. Everyone is reading the same files. Everyone is writing to the same files ("one version of the truth").
    Where it falls down is if there is an outage....everyone is screwed then.
    Rather than a true mainframe of "eons" ago, I imagine it is a rack of servers like Blades or something along those lines. But the bottom line is that all this "cloud" stuff is really nothing more than what we did some 30 years ago... right?

    I kind of chuckle to myself when I hear folks raving about "the cloud." Apparently they are too young to remember "the mainframe."

    Regarding the aforementioned crash above... I would assume that the cloud is a redundant set of servers that are hot swappable... of course if there is a major outage... yup, everyone is off line.

    One of my friends was raving about the cloud and how he stores everything there for his ipad... all I could think of is gee what happens when you are out of wifi or cell range... and can't connect to your cloud?

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    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Rather than a true mainframe of "eons" ago, I imagine it is a rack of servers like Blades or something along those lines. But the bottom line is that all this "cloud" stuff is really nothing more than what we did some 30 years ago... right?

    I kind of chuckle to myself when I hear folks raving about "the cloud." Apparently they are too young to remember "the mainframe."

    Regarding the aforementioned crash above... I would assume that the cloud is a redundant set of servers that are hot swappable... of course if there is a major outage... yup, everyone is off line.

    One of my friends was raving about the cloud and how he stores everything there for his ipad... all I could think of is gee what happens when you are out of wifi or cell range... and can't connect to your cloud?

    well, sort of.
    30 yrs ago, you had to be physically attached to the server somehow, which meant being at a specific location and accessing the data/files/programs through a hardwired connection of some sort. On the cloud, the data/files/programs are accessible anywhere you have an internet connection, and if done properly, you can have real-time data.

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    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Rather than a true mainframe of "eons" ago, I imagine it is a rack of servers like Blades or something along those lines. But the bottom line is that all this "cloud" stuff is really nothing more than what we did some 30 years ago... right?

    I kind of chuckle to myself when I hear folks raving about "the cloud." Apparently they are too young to remember "the mainframe."

    Regarding the aforementioned crash above... I would assume that the cloud is a redundant set of servers that are hot swappable... of course if there is a major outage... yup, everyone is off line.

    One of my friends was raving about the cloud and how he stores everything there for his ipad... all I could think of is gee what happens when you are out of wifi or cell range... and can't connect to your cloud?
    My company does data warehousing. All servers have redundant power and some sort of RAID redundancy for data. I imagine most data centers have some sort of backup power in case of a major outage, but it probably wouldn't last longer than it takes for the servers to shut down safely.
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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModoVincere View Post
    well, sort of.
    30 yrs ago, you had to be physically attached to the server somehow, which meant being at a specific location and accessing the data/files/programs through a hardwired connection of some sort. On the cloud, the data/files/programs are accessible anywhere you have an internet connection, and if done properly, you can have real-time data.
    Oh I understand that... wireless is what makes the cloud convenient, and for that I am somewhat grateful as I have spent the last 20+ years designing various wireless consumer products so users could connect somehow to something without needing that physical connection.

    But long before that, I worked on a college campus in a computer center where we had the mainframes and huge disk drives... and cables running everywhere to terminals. And to tell the truth I see little difference between what we had then and what is being hailed now, except the obvious updated computer speeds, and the wireless connection.

    I just find it somewhat ironic to hear folks "discover" what we had so long ago... and rave about it as if it is something new. Ain't marketing grand.

    I can't help but think that in 5 or 6 years with dramatically improved solid state drive capacities, someone will start touting "take the cloud with you," meaning store your data locally so you can go beyond the wireless connection.

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    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    well, it is still 1's and 0's.

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    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModoVincere View Post
    well, it is still 1's and 0's.
    And 0's are nothing. So you can save lots of room in memory if you compress it all down to 1's.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

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    Senior Member somedood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I just find it somewhat ironic to hear folks "discover" what we had so long ago... and rave about it as if it is something new. Ain't marketing grand.

    I can't help but think that in 5 or 6 years with dramatically improved solid state drive capacities, someone will start touting "take the cloud with you," meaning store your data locally so you can go beyond the wireless connection.
    It's almost the exact same thing as it was before, just that the network protocols let you connect from farther away. I think you're right that it is kind of cyclical, where it started mostly server-based, then shifted to client-based, then server-based (at least when it comes to web apps) and now it's kind of a mix between the two.

    It's funny to see what names stick. For some reason "the cloud" stuck, but I'm sure glad the whole Web 2.0 label went away.

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    Senior Member somedood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artkansas View Post
    And 0's are nothing. So you can save lots of room in memory if you compress it all down to 1's.
    This is so true, 1's are so much more narrow than 0's. When I go on a trip with my laptop I compress them all to 1's and it is so much lighter!

  11. #11
    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    The mainframes implemented a lot of this technology in hardware back in the day.

    But now all of these servers are just software entities that can be moved between any available hardware transparently to the end user via the various hypervisors.
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    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artkansas View Post
    And 0's are nothing. So you can save lots of room in memory if you compress it all down to 1's.
    eh...technically, null is nothing. 0 is 0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So is the cloud just a return to mainframes?
    It's a return to client/server from the allpowerful rugged individual PC but I think the value you are supposed to get for surrendering your data back to it is colossal duplication of data so no one earthquake or nuclear war will erase your data, and also in an ideal world which they are probably only lying about duplication of transit routes so no one earthquake or nuclear war would cut you off from your data. OK, we know that's not true, there are telecom effective monopolies where a brownout outside DC will cut the whole US off from a lot of data regardless of the location of the servers, but that's a hope they dangle in front of us.

    I keep everything I pay for on a local hard drive for sure.

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    Banned Indy_Rider's Avatar
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    It's a fancy way of companies to gain your personal information and profit it off of it.

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    That's been my impression for the most part, at least of the consumer end of things. For an institution it might make sense to farm out computing power and storage to someone else, but as a individual I'd prefer the idea of setting up my own server if there was data I wanted to access remotely, so that I maintain posession and control of my data instead of some company holding the cards. In marketing hype speak that's known as a "personal cloud" to some. There are some very cheap and low-powered "plug computers" (basically a NAS that uses external storage) that are marketed for this purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    My company does data warehousing. All servers have redundant power and some sort of RAID redundancy for data. I imagine most data centers have some sort of backup power in case of a major outage, but it probably wouldn't last longer than it takes for the servers to shut down safely.
    The NYT recently did a story on the Google and Microsoft data centers being built in eastern Washington adjacent to the hydroelectric dams. The centers have large numbers of emergency diesel generators that combined, approach the electrical output of a nuclear power plant. The centers can continue running 24/7 for at least a few days, and longer if more diesel is shipped in.
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    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    A real datacenter will have multiple layers of redundancy:
    - RAID on the storage
    - redundancy of the storage
    - redundancy of the servers themselves (this one is negotiable depending on the criticality of the server)
    - backups and archiving of some sort
    - backup power (UPS)
    - generators to backup the UPS (negotiable depending on importance)
    - multiple network connections (again, negotiable depending on importance)

    Even in our one-room mostly-empty three-rack shack, we have everything above but the multiple net connections (but we do upstream) and the generator. There is enough UPS capacity for 30-45 minutes.

    With virtualization and things like vMotion, all you need is one big pile of physical machines and the virtual servers can be moved between them with no downtime in the event of a failure. Virtualization also changes some things like RAID... you end up moving that to the hypervisor/physical machine level instead of on the virtual servers.
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    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Weren't there a limited number of users who could run processes on a mainframe at a given time? I suppose there are limits on users of the cloud too, but it's vastly greater.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


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    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    Weren't there a limited number of users who could run processes on a mainframe at a given time? I suppose there are limits on users of the cloud too, but it's vastly greater.
    For the platforms I am familiar with, these limits were set by the sysadmins. Limits on storage, process time, memory usage, % of CPU available, etc.

    We do the exact same thing now. When you rent a virtual server from Amazon or whoever, you pick a machine of a certain size. That determines how much CPU/RAM/disk you get.

    On my VMware machines, I set the max number of CPU cycles the servers can take and what priority the server has to take memory and CPU, in addition to the virtual hardware properties of RAM/disk/# of virtual CPUs.

    VMware actually does a little magic to turn the physical server into a TARDIS... you can easily allocate more CPUs and RAM (and even disk) to the virtual servers than exist on the physical machine.
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    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    I guess I was thinking more of old mainframes at schools that older people have told me about where there could only be one person at a time logged into it running a process from their terminal.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


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    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    I guess I was thinking more of old mainframes at schools that older people have told me about where there could only be one person at a time logged into it running a process from their terminal.
    At least as long as we've had UNIX (1970, so it's older than me), you've also been able to set per-user and systemwide process limits. I could totally set up a user and only let him have one process, but that is pointless, because the login shell is itself a process. Oracle is about the only thing I can think of that requires one to turn the default per-user process limit up. It's a very rare thing to change these days.

    When hardware was somewhat more limited than it is now, scheduling was required to keep too many people from logging onto the system at once and maxing the boxes out. That could either be done by limiting the number of login consoles on the system or via administrative (non-computerized) means.
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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    Weren't there a limited number of users who could run processes on a mainframe at a given time? I suppose there are limits on users of the cloud too, but it's vastly greater.
    Sure, but computers are massively more powerful these days... Heck I recall back in the mid '70s running programs on a thing the size of a large home refrigerator and it only had 64k of memory... of course inside were all these discrete circuit boards with individual transistors on them... Today my wristwatch has about 1000 times more processing power. And cell phones... sheesh... these things today far far out compute the old original PCs and Macs.

    Computing power has changed big time. I just happen to find it ironic that in one sense we are going back to the "mainframes," by calling it "the cloud."

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    As I understand it the cloud is just a file server that you may also be able to run processes on... something we called "the mainframe back in the late '70s or early '80s. Yeah you could save files on it, you could run batch processes on it... then we came up with the personal computer... apple or ibm... suddenly you were saving files locally on your 10meg HD, and running your processes locally.

    Then HD capacity increased at a nice clip... but you had to do your own backups... and everyone feared the HD crash.

    Now the cloud appears... which near as I can tell is just a return back to mainframe servers hidden in some closet somewhere... just like the old days.

    So is the cloud just a return to mainframes?
    "The Cloud" is not a specific hardware implementation (data centers, virtulization, etc.). It is rather the interconnection of billions of devices with the promise of near-instant access to any data or resource. The current incarnation is promising the death of the laptop and desktop... you'd just have a tablet that would connect to a server of sufficient horsepower somewhere in the cloud. This is already practiced locally by many industries where an employee VNCs into a workstation. The laptop does not have to be powerful, only the workstation. If all the workstations are the same then it becomes much easier to administer them (reduced IT costs). If your company pays someone like Amazon Web Services to do this then that helps your book-keeping... it becomes a known per-month cost instead of constant planning for server upgrades & installs based on demand (plus far less IT support is needed). Eventually this paradigm will push into the home user space (it has already begun with things like G-mail, Google Apps, etc.). The vision is that you'll walk around with your tablet (or other visualization device) and be connected to an instance of AutoCad running on a beefy server somewhere. You pay $X per month, the other company deals with the technical headaches of backups, compute resource usage, etc., etc. Want a bigger screen? Drag the desktop onto your TV or other large format display...

    There are some hurdles before the home user is fully in the cloud: 1) bandwidth in/out of the home, 2) software licensing agreements (who pays for that copy of MS Office out on the server), and 3) a mentality shift from users (data privacy concerns, etc.).

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post
    "The Cloud" is not a specific hardware implementation (data centers, virtulization, etc.). It is rather the interconnection of billions of devices with the promise of near-instant access to any data or resource. The current incarnation is promising the death of the laptop and desktop... you'd just have a tablet that would connect to a server of sufficient horsepower somewhere in the cloud. This is already practiced locally by many industries where an employee VNCs into a workstation. The laptop does not have to be powerful, only the workstation. If all the workstations are the same then it becomes much easier to administer them (reduced IT costs). If your company pays someone like Amazon Web Services to do this then that helps your book-keeping... it becomes a known per-month cost instead of constant planning for server upgrades & installs based on demand (plus far less IT support is needed). Eventually this paradigm will push into the home user space (it has already begun with things like G-mail, Google Apps, etc.). The vision is that you'll walk around with your tablet (or other visualization device) and be connected to an instance of AutoCad running on a beefy server somewhere. You pay $X per month, the other company deals with the technical headaches of backups, compute resource usage, etc., etc. Want a bigger screen? Drag the desktop onto your TV or other large format display...

    There are some hurdles before the home user is fully in the cloud: 1) bandwidth in/out of the home, 2) software licensing agreements (who pays for that copy of MS Office out on the server), and 3) a mentality shift from users (data privacy concerns, etc.).
    Not to mention a need to stay connected... which pretty much kills working in remote places... such as on a plane in flight, or out in the back country.

    Of course no doubt to the visionaries, the net can be reached everywhere and there is no such thing as latency. of course no one bothered to explain physics to the visionaries, eh?

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    Look! My Spine! RubenX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    My company does data warehousing. All servers have redundant power and some sort of RAID redundancy for data. I imagine most data centers have some sort of backup power in case of a major outage, but it probably wouldn't last longer than it takes for the servers to shut down safely.
    Data Center Analyst for a few of the Fortune 500s chiming in:

    The defenses against a power outage are many. The first line is redundant power from the energy company's grid (if available). That means that the building takes energy from 2 city blocks. There has to be a large area wide power outage to be affected.

    The 2nd line of defense are batteries. A minimum of 2 hours is required, many places have more. Still, battery backups are never used for more than a few minutes because they can run the servers but they can't run the massive Air Conditioning units required to keep the room from melting. I have been present during battery backup failures and even a small data center can reach 115 Celsius quite fast.

    The 3rd line of defense is a Power Generator that can run both servers, the ACs and a handful of cubicles. These Generators can run for days on one tank full. Refilling the tanks will keep things going till the generator breaks or services can be migrated to an alternate location. I even drove a pick up truck with an improvised fuel tank in the back, refueling the plant on week #3 after hurricane George.

    The 4th Line of defense is the "Disaster Recovery Site". This is a 2nd data center located on a different state that holds "live" copies of all essential systems. If designed correctly, services can be switched to the DRS in a matter of minutes, looking as a transparent operation to the users.

    and Finally, the 5th line of defense is, well... Monster.com
    "Hoy es un dia normal, pero yo voy a hacerlo intenso" ~ Juanes

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