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  1. #1
    Future Retro Grouch bici_mania's Avatar
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    People who changed history but also hated.

    I am in a philosophy class and the question was put to me:

    consider: What about some (other) examples from history of when bad turned out to be good...?
    For example, what about major revolutionary figures in history...
    Can you think of any whom were considered bad by their own society but are seen as good by generations (of the very same society) later on?

    People who come to mind are MLK, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill. Perhaps the abolitionist John Brown or William Wilberforce but it seems to me there ought to be better examples? My list is narrow.

    Can any of you think of someone?
    Life is like a ten speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use. - Charles M. Schulz

  2. #2
    on by skijor's Avatar
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    Ralph Nader pales in comparison to those you've mentioned. But his efforts have saved countless lives.

  3. #3
    derailleurs are overrated bigbenaugust's Avatar
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    I vote for jsharr.
    --Ben
    Carrboro Bike Coalition - putting the "bike" in "CARrboro" :)
    2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX
    Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014)
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  4. #4
    Senior Member no motor?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbenaugust View Post
    I vote for jsharr.
    Wait until he gets back from lunch and finds out we've been talking about him. Again.

  5. #5
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    Any scientist persecuted by The Church from the 1400-1700s. Copernicus, Descartes come to mind.

    Martin Luther. Ghandi.

  6. #6
    Senior Member no motor?'s Avatar
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    Tesla.

  7. #7
    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    Jesus....he was so bad, they crucified him.
    His teachings are good.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bici_mania View Post
    People who come to mind are MLK, Winston Churchill. ...........My list is narrow.
    Narrow.... and undocumented. I was alive and don't recall any dislike of ether of these men. What are you using as criteria for "bad"?

  9. #9
    Senior Member no motor?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Narrow.... and undocumented. I was alive and don't recall any dislike of ether of these men. What are you using as criteria for "bad"?
    Really? I was only a kid when King was assassinated in late 60's, and remember my parents struggling to explain why there were 2 sets of bathrooms in the south then and why so many people didn't think that equal rights for all was a good idea.

    And from what I remember about Churchill, his prewar popularity was pretty low and he wouldn't have been so popular without WWII.

  10. #10
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    I deleted some stuff that is more P&R than Foo. Please try to answer the OP's question and keep the P&R vitriol out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
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  11. #11
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Oliver Cromwell
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  12. #12
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Narrow.... and undocumented. I was alive and don't recall any dislike of ether of these men.
    Plenty for MLK when I was growing up. There still is some actually.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  13. #13
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    Darwin
    Campione Del Mondo Immaginario

  14. #14
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Lloyd Kaufman

  15. #15
    Future Retro Grouch bici_mania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Narrow.... and undocumented. I was alive and don't recall any dislike of ether of these men. What are you using as criteria for "bad"?
    This is what makes the question hard, everyone significant in history had supporters and enemies or detractors.

    It seems that it is far more easy to find those who started out as loved and then fell out of favor.
    Life is like a ten speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use. - Charles M. Schulz

  16. #16
    Future Retro Grouch bici_mania's Avatar
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    Thank you all very much, great input, thank you for helping get the gears cranking.
    Life is like a ten speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use. - Charles M. Schulz

  17. #17
    Senior Member no motor?'s Avatar
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    Ignaz Semmelweis. He's the one who initiated the practice of handwashing before surgery. He was ridiculed for the idea at the time, and later vindicated.

  18. #18
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    George Washington, Ben Franklin, Sam and John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, all bad eggs and so was anyone who knew them. Franklin's son was the only decent one among them.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  19. #19
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Narrow.... and undocumented. I was alive and don't recall any dislike of ether of these men. What are you using as criteria for "bad"?
    I guess you didn't live in the south then. MLK was definitely a pariah to many. And WC was not beloved to many before and after WWII.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  20. #20
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Lots of scientists whose insights went against prevailing beliefs, and whose works were at first reviled, but then gradually accepted, embraced, and built upon by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Newton to Robert Hooke, 1676
    If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants.
    - Stan

  21. #21
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Elvis Presley and The Beatles come to mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bici_mania View Post
    ..... It seems that it is far more easy to find those who started out as loved and then fell out of favor.
    It's a philosophy class. I think the point is that of perception. Famous and infamous... for many is a synonym. There can no black.. if there is no white (with the exception of reflected as opposed to absorbed they can even be descripted as the same). The "key" is in the definition of the word "bad". Is the military that saved thousands by killing hundreds a hero... or violent murder.

    Bad.... that is the same as the sound a tree makes when it falls in the forest. Without a human ear to perceive it.... the tree makes no sound.

    Don't confuse popularity with beliefs. Many may have hated MLK... if for no other reason than the color of his skin. But no civilized man of the day disliked his values. MLK was never by any known measure... a "bad" man. Nor was WC.
    Last edited by Dave Cutter; 02-07-14 at 04:10 PM.

  23. #23
    A tiny member bikeguyinvenice's Avatar
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    I just wonder how the last two president of the U.S. will be remembered.
    My cycling blog http://kcmjr.wordpress.com/
    "Normal" is just a setting on a washing machine.

  24. #24
    Pentapointed Member ahsposo's Avatar
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    Justin Beiber.

    Oh, wait...

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    If I gotta look up words, it's not worth my time.

  25. #25
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    It's a philosophy class. I think the point is that of perception. Famous and infamous... for many is a synonym. There can no black.. if there is no white (with the exception of reflected as opposed to absorbed they can even be descripted as the same). The "key" is in the definition of the word "bad". Is the military that saved thousands by killing hundreds a hero... or violent murder.

    Bad.... that is the same as the sound a tree makes when it falls in the forest. Without a human ear to perceive it.... the tree makes no sound.

    Don't confuse popularity with beliefs. Many may have hated MLK... if for no other reason than the color of his skin. But no civilized man of the day disliked his values. MLK was never by any known measure... a "bad" man. Nor was WC.
    I think you are inserting your value system here. Many have other values and hate others due to this. I would say that many hated both men solely for their values.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

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