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 04-18-14, 02:07 PM #1 Tom Stormcrowe Out fishing with Annie on his lap, a cigar in one hand and a ginger ale in the other, watching the sunset. Thread Starter     Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: South Florida Bikes: Techna Wheelchair and a Sun EZ 3 Recumbent Trike Posts: 16,128 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 0 Post(s) Intellectual teaser: The Edge of the Universe, The Foo Edition OK, we're gonna play a little game. We will stay strictly within the realm of Newtonian Mechanics. Posit: An expanding Universe from the zero point, aka "The Big Bang". The Mission: Using a Bussard Ramjet drive system, you depart for the edge of the universe. remember, as your velocity (V) approaches light speed (C), your time dilation effect increases and your ship time slows below the rate of sidereal time passage. You experience fewer years than the exterior universe does outside of your bubble. Ship Time will be represented by the Greek lower case letter tau (τ) and sidereal by (T) For simplicity of the brain crunch, let's go ahead and place Earth as the physical center of the expanding universe. This is just to fix a position so we have a fixed reference origin. How long will it take you in T(years)? How long in τ(Years)? What is the end ratio of T:τ? Finally, will you ever actually be able to reach the edge of the universe, or are we talking an asymptotic curve of the type of equation where you take the remaining distance and keep dividing in into halves as it descends toward remaining distance being zero, but can never hit zero, even to the distance measured in fractions of the distance traveled in one unit of Planck Time (A theoretical smallest possible measure of a unit of time and indivisible). The distance can be defined as the diameter of a photon, which is the smallest indivisible particle in Newtonian Mechanics. When and how far apart will T and τ diverge.......how many years? __________________ . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
04-18-14, 02:09 PM   #2
RoadTire
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 Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe OK, we're gonna play a little game. We will stay strictly within the realm of Newtonian Mechanics. Posit: An expanding Universe from the zero point, aka "The Big Bang". The Mission: Using a Bussard Ramjet drive system, ....
You have been sneaking vintage Larry Niven paperbacks haven't you?
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 04-18-14, 02:12 PM #3 RPK79 Senior Member     Join Date: May 2013 Location: SE MN Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo Posts: 10,290 Mentioned: 33 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 2137 Post(s) Can this be multiple choice? If so I choose C.
 04-18-14, 03:11 PM #4 gitarzan Lost Again     Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Columbus, Oh! Bikes: Soma Saga, 1991 Sirrus, Specialized Secteur Elite, Miele Umbria Elite. Posts: 1,041 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 1 Post(s) Bussard Ramjet drives suck. Not nearly reliable enough to make it out of the galaxy let alone get the the edge of the universe.
 04-18-14, 03:36 PM #5 Jseis  Protected Witness member     Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Washington state on the ocean! Bikes: 1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, 2003 Colnago Dream Lux, 2014 Giant Defy 1, 2015 Framed Bikes Minnesota 3.0, several older family Treks Posts: 1,482 Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 72 Post(s) I can honestly say; "You'll never get there", Occam's Razor cuts both ways, and Newton is dead. Can we use a dark matter ramjet? __________________ Make Amerika Grate Cheese Again
 04-18-14, 05:12 PM #6 skijor on by     Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin Bikes: Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya, Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT Posts: 933 Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 260 Post(s) Would it be considered cheating if I chatted with my buddy NDT and got back to you?
 04-18-14, 06:06 PM #7 jdon Senior Member   Join Date: May 2009 Bikes: Posts: 4,239 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 0 Post(s) Fortunately, my travels are limited to the stratosphere... I know how to get there and back.
 04-18-14, 07:15 PM #8 Alfster  long time visiter     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: in the Northern Tundra Bikes: 2005 Trek 6700 disc 2007 Orbea Onix 2009 Raleigh One Way Posts: 615 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 6 Post(s) I do not recognize the traditional meaning of time, as it is just a man-made concept. I follow my own system for measuring the passing of events. Long story short, the answer is 5.1908 quarks.
04-18-14, 07:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe We will stay strictly within the realm of Newtonian Mechanics. Posit: An expanding Universe from the zero point, aka "The Big Bang". The Mission: Using a Bussard Ramjet drive system, you depart for the edge of the universe. remember, as your velocity (V) approaches light speed (C), your time dilation effect increases and your ship time slows below the rate of sidereal time passage. You experience fewer years than the exterior universe does outside of your bubble. Ship Time will be represented by the Greek lower case letter tau (τ) and sidereal by (T)
There is no "edge of the universe," nor is there a center where you can choose to place the Earth, so the answer is never no matter which clock you use. And if you're staying within the realm of Newtonian mechanics then all clocks are the same.

 04-18-14, 08:17 PM #10 bigbenaugust  always rides with luggage     Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KIGX Bikes: 2009 Fantom CX, 2012 Fantom Cross Uno, Bakfiets Posts: 2,047 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 107 Post(s) Is it bad that I read this as "Intellectual taser..."? __________________ --Ben 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, and a Bakfiets Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015) Non-Bike hardware: Xubuntu / BunsenLabs Linux / Devuan / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 4.4 / LineageOS 13
 04-18-14, 09:39 PM #11 Cyclosaurus Senior Member     Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Chicago Western 'burbs Bikes: 1993 NOS Mt Shasta Tempest, Motobecane Fantom Cross CX, Dahon Speed D7, Dahon Vector P8, Bullitt Superfly Posts: 1,068 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 1 Post(s) Not sure I understand here. You say "We will stay strictly within the realm of Newtonian Mechanics." Which means to me that we are ignoring relativistic effects such as time dilation. Then you present the problem in relativistic terms. Seems like a trick question.
04-18-14, 10:51 PM   #12
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My infinite improbability drive makes this a trivial question. Meh!

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04-19-14, 12:36 AM   #13
Tom Stormcrowe
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 Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus Not sure I understand here. You say "We will stay strictly within the realm of Newtonian Mechanics." Which means to me that we are ignoring relativistic effects such as time dilation. Then you present the problem in relativistic terms. Seems like a trick question.
poor wording on my part. relativistic effects are known and there is empiric proof via "slippage" in orbit fof a satellite in relation to where it should be and actually is and infinitesimal error creeping ion on atomic clocks as compared to ground vs orbit. The one in orbit develops a noticeable error over time. General Relativity is a development from Newtonian and I am trying, more accurately, to hold to Einstein's view that does not include quantum effect (He hated the QM model).
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04-19-14, 09:11 PM   #14
rm -rf
don't try this at home.

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 Originally Posted by Artkansas My infinite improbability drive makes this a trivial question. Meh!
The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

"Delay?" [Zaphod] cried. "Have you seen the world outside this ship? It's a wasteland, a desert. Civilization's been and gone, man. There are no lemon-soaked paper napkins on the way from anywhere."

"The statistical likelihood," continued the autopilot primly, "is that other civilizations will arise. There will one day be lemon-soaked paper napkins. Till then there will be a short delay. Please return to your seat."

Last edited by rm -rf; 04-19-14 at 09:14 PM.

 04-19-14, 09:20 PM #15 rm -rf don't try this at home.     Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: N. KY Bikes: Posts: 4,332 Mentioned: 5 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 323 Post(s) Since the universe's expansion seems to be accelerating, I don't think you can get to the "edge" at light speed.
 04-19-14, 09:30 PM #16 Will G Senior Member     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Granbury, Texas Bikes: Posts: 710 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 19 Post(s) I thought the answer was 42.
04-20-14, 07:15 AM   #17
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 Originally Posted by Will G I thought the answer was 42.
That works.

 04-20-14, 07:59 AM #18 trackhub Senior Member     Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Watching all of you on O.B.I.T. Bikes: Gunnar Street Dog Posts: 2,011 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 6 Post(s) What happens when I hit the barrier at the edge of the Galaxy?
04-20-14, 08:05 AM   #19
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 Originally Posted by Alfster I do not recognize the traditional meaning of time, as it is just a man-made concept. I follow my own system for measuring the passing of events. Long story short, the answer is 5.1908 quarks.
Did the JRTs give you the answer? If so, did you remember to divide by 7 for the human answer?

 04-20-14, 09:05 AM #20 Garfield Cat Senior Member     Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy Posts: 6,366 Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 137 Post(s) Wait, let me as Dr. Sheldon Cooper.
04-21-14, 05:35 AM   #21
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 Originally Posted by bigbenaugust Is it bad that I read this as "Intellectual taser..."?
Is the wife spurning your romantic advances again?

(I read it the same...now I'm wondering if an intellectual taser strictly zaps your brain, as opposed to everything else.)

 04-21-14, 10:25 AM #22 no motor? Senior Member     Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicagoland Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Posts: 5,282 Mentioned: 4 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 341 Post(s) What's the frequency Kenneth?
04-21-14, 10:31 AM   #23
Bob Ross
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe The one in orbit develops a noticeable error over time.
Given that gravity has a measurable effect on time, it seems more likely that the one on the ground is the one developing an error.

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