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Old 08-13-14, 07:26 AM   #51
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Just because someone shoots a kid in the leg, intentionally missing the arteries, doesn't mean it's okay. Speed limit is the speed limit. Obey or get fined. Don't obey repeatedly and do foolish stuff like this guy did, you'll get jailed for risking other's lives.


I never said it was. You said that driving 50km/hr in excess of the speed limit was extremely dangerous. I merely stated it's not that simple.
Posting a speed limit artificially low actually encourages breaking the law. People will drive what they deem reasonably safe. If you design a road for 80mph, and then slap a 55mph speed limit on it, you will find that most people are breaking the law.

If you have arbitrary seeming speed limits all over the place, you only cultivate behavior that renders laws less effective.
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Old 08-13-14, 08:02 AM   #52
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...
If you have arbitrary seeming speed limits all over the place, you only cultivate behavior that renders laws less effective.
Very true, and I would expect rational speed limits instead of arbitrary ones were enforcement to reach the levels they should be.
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Old 08-13-14, 08:30 AM   #53
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I never said it was. You said that driving 50km/hr in excess of the speed limit was extremely dangerous. I merely stated it's not that simple.
Posting a speed limit artificially low actually encourages breaking the law. People will drive what they deem reasonably safe. If you design a road for 80mph, and then slap a 55mph speed limit on it, you will find that most people are breaking the law.

If you have arbitrary seeming speed limits all over the place, you only cultivate behavior that renders laws less effective.
Some people will drive what they deem safe. Most people will realize they're breaking the speed limit by 50 km/h and slow down even if they deem the road to be safe.

I get your point about the arbitrary speed limits, but a law is a law is a law.. You should never be caught breaking the posted limit by more than 15% and expect to get away.
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Old 08-13-14, 09:00 AM   #54
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Some people will drive what they deem safe. Most people will realize they're breaking the speed limit by 50 km/h and slow down even if they deem the road to be safe.

I get your point about the arbitrary speed limits, but a law is a law is a law.. You should never be caught breaking the posted limit by more than 15% and expect to get away.
what makes 15% the standard?
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Old 08-13-14, 09:12 AM   #55
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what makes 15% the standard?
I always speed what I tip, so 20%.
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Old 08-13-14, 10:45 AM   #56
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No.



Just because someone shoots a kid in the leg, intentionally missing the arteries, doesn't mean it's okay. Speed limit is the speed limit. Obey or get fined. Don't obey repeatedly and do foolish stuff like this guy did, you'll get jailed for risking other's lives.



If you were caught going twice the speed limit multiple times, yeah you'd deserve it.

What if some cop didn't pull someone over and he went on to kill someone you love? Cop wasn't pulling anyone over because "the road is designed for far more than 50 mph?" I guarantee you will sue the police department.



Innocents have been killed for a crime they didn't commit and guilty have walked. Don't be stupid, obey the law or face the consequences.

You seem to be intent on creating fantasy realities and in some of them you and I might be in agreement. But, my position is that three days loss of liberty is not appropriate for a first time speeding ticket. If you exceed the speed limit you indeed take your chances. I just don't think incarceration in this case is warranted.
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Old 08-13-14, 12:19 PM   #57
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You seem to be intent on creating fantasy realities and in some of them you and I might be in agreement. But, my position is that three days loss of liberty is not appropriate for a first time speeding ticket. If you exceed the speed limit you indeed take your chances. I just don't think incarceration in this case is warranted.
The discussion isn't just about jail time for speeding, it's the REAL LIFE outcome of a case where a moron (REPEAT offender) got jail time for doubling the posted speed limit.

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what makes 15% the standard?
Sorry, I should have typed 15 km/h.

And that is based on the Ontario demerit point system where you get a 3 point penalty for exceeding the limit by 15+ km/h, 4 points for 30+ km/h, and 6 points for 50+ km/h.
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Old 08-13-14, 01:40 PM   #58
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so everyone should follow Ontario's model?

Sure, a law is a law, often made by politicians to enhance revenue. I'm just saying that enacting the law and enforcing it to the letter can breed more contempt that compliance.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:14 PM   #59
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93 mph is not even half way through 2nd gear for me.

After spending most of my summer in Germany last year, and driving the Autobahn, I fail to understand why we are allowed to market and sell and drive V8's sports cars, super bikes etc, when there is no opportunity to use even a fraction of their power.

It's like giving a kid the best candy and telling him he is only allowed to look at it.

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Old 08-13-14, 02:34 PM   #60
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93 mph is not even half way through 2nd gear for me.

After spending most of my summer in Germany last year, and driving the Autobahn, I fail to understand why we are allowed to market and sell and drive V8's sports cars, super bikes etc, when there is no opportunity to use even a fraction of their power.

It's like giving a kid the best candy and telling him he is only allowed to look at it.

0 to 60 is king of American streets.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:37 PM   #61
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0 to 60 is king of American streets.
Way back my son got reckless driving for 0-60 with breaking a bit of traction. Just saying.....
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Old 08-13-14, 02:46 PM   #62
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In what ways does the society benefit from having laws which are not enforced? I can think of only two, both of which should be opposed on ethical grounds. Feel free to add what I missed, but the only two reasons are: selective enforcement, and revenue generation.

I wouldn't necessarily object to revenue generation if that's all it was. If it's random, you have a chance of getting stopped and paying a fine, you can calculate the odds and cost and make your own decision. But there are consequences beyond the fine, and if you're randomly causing injury to individuals in addition to the fine, for no other reason than to collect revenue from him, that has to be crossing the line.

Set the speed limit to be the highest speed allowed, not the highest speed minus 10% at someone's sole discretion. Not the highest speed that 85% of the drivers will abide. Make the limit an actual limit. If too many drivers ignore it, then either raise the limit or raise the penalty, or some combination thereof, until you have acceptable levels of compliance and revenue. If that's what Virginia has done then I think they're on the right track and I'd like to see it adopted in other states.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:48 PM   #63
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In what ways does the society benefit from having laws which are not enforced? I can think of only two, both of which should be opposed on ethical grounds. Feel free to add what I missed, but the only two reasons are: selective enforcement, and revenue generation.

I wouldn't necessarily object to revenue generation if that's all it was. If it's random, you have a chance of getting stopped and paying a fine, you can calculate the odds and cost and make your own decision. But there are consequences beyond the fine, and if you're randomly causing injury to individuals in addition to the fine, for no other reason than to collect revenue from him, that has to be crossing the line.

Set the speed limit to be the highest speed allowed, not the highest speed minus 10% at someone's sole discretion. Not the highest speed that 85% of the drivers will abide. Make the limit an actual limit. If too many drivers ignore it, then either raise the limit or raise the penalty, or some combination thereof, until you have acceptable levels of compliance and revenue. If that's what Virginia has done then I think they're on the right track and I'd like to see it adopted in other states.
Generally, allowance is made for calibration errors...both in speedometers and in measuring equipment (aka radar or laser).
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Old 08-13-14, 03:15 PM   #64
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Generally, allowance is made for calibration errors...both in speedometers and in measuring equipment (aka radar or laser).
Now be reasonable, giving 74 in a 60 zone for a calibration error? I'm talking about the "grace" buffer between the nominal speed limit and the speed that is actually enforced.

also, this just struck me. If you do get a ticket for 3 or 4 mph over the limit, and you tell the judge "I put larger tires on and didn't realize that the speed was that high", the court normally doesn't care. If you could somehow prove that your speedometer was off, they still wouldn't care. If you prove that the cop's radar is imprecise you have a chance, but even that is rare these days. So if you're right, the courts have a different regard for the precision of calibration as do the cops. How does that help anything, if enforcement on the road differs from enforcement in the court? Make it a hard limit, or add 3mph in the statute, but whatever you do make it the same for the statute, cops and courts and enforce it equally!

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Old 08-13-14, 05:51 PM   #65
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If it's a ticket, and a reasonably fair one, I'll generally just pay it. Like the $400 one I got two years ago. Doesn't bother me, I deserved it.

Going to jail for speeding is stupid. Absolutely ****** dumb.
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Old 08-13-14, 08:39 PM   #66
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so everyone should follow Ontario's model?

Sure, a law is a law, often made by politicians to enhance revenue. I'm just saying that enacting the law and enforcing it to the letter can breed more contempt that compliance.
Stop arguing for no reason, you know I didn't say that.

I don't understand why are you defending a repeat offender for speeding by almost double the posted limit?
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