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View Poll Results: Eliminate paypal gifting?

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  • Yes, buyer protection is worth the 4% premium

    5 83.33%
  • Five bucks is five bucks, man.

    1 16.67%
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  1. #1
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Paypal gift payment instead of charging an extra $5.

    I'm noticing more and more FS threads requesting a paypal gift. It's getting out of hand, can we curb this before it's too late? I fully understand that the cycling community is one of trust and morality, I subscribe to it myself, but, like it or not, this facet of the cycling community is online and often the leading google result which makes it really easy for someone with loose morals to come in and exploit the users of BF. I say let the price reflect the paypal fees in for sale threads. Someone's going to get burnt bad by some newbie that drops $3 for a yellow jersey next to their name.

    Buyer protection exists for a reason, let's mandate it.

    Edit: Added colossally leading and tongue in cheek poll.
    Last edited by IthaDan; 06-26-12 at 06:37 PM.

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  2. #2
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    One nice thing about paypal is that they do have a dispute process and buyer protection. That's why most people use it, or they do local pickup only for cash on our FS forums. We just provide the infrastructure, and use the paid membership requirement to filter the scammers out as much as is possible, but it's buyer beware, because we do not get any percentage on any sale, and only provide the markets as a convenience to our members. That's also why we require clear prices to be posted, and do not allow auctions or promotion of ebay pages in our market areas.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


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  3. #3
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    The root of the topic of this thread is that there is no buyer protection if you send money through PayPal as a gift.

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  4. #4
    Lotus Monomaniac Snydermann's Avatar
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    Sellers should build the cost of doing business, such as transaction fees and postage into the asking price of their merchandise. It's not that difficult to estimate shipping on most regular-size items. Variations up or down in your actual shipping cost based on destinations should balance out over time. USPS offers flat-rate shipping, one box one price.

    Start with the highest price that covers all the shipping and transaction fees and then offer a discount for cash payments or personal pick up.
    Always searching for Lotus literature and memorabilia for use at www.VintageLOTUSbicycles.com, can you help?

  5. #5
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snydermann View Post
    Sellers should build the cost of doing business, such as transaction fees and postage into the asking price of their merchandise. It's not that difficult to estimate shipping on most regular-size items. Variations up or down in your actual shipping cost based on destinations should balance out over time. USPS offers flat-rate shipping, one box one price.

    Start with the highest price that covers all the shipping and transaction fees and then offer a discount for cash payments or personal pick up.
    Exactly. I'm really only suggesting two things: first is a forum wide awareness boosting effort (Maybe a sticky like this one? to tell people that if you gift a paypal payment, and the seller goes M.I.A, you have no recourse and second, a general policy of frowning upon sellers requesting gift payments. It's not really that different of an moderations effort than the previous one to mandate clear prices. I don't really want to add to the moderation team's workload, but I feel that once it gets moving, the community will police itself.

    These forums (forii?) have a lot of traffic that just posts once and then, once their issue is resolved, never comes back. But at the same time, there are some high [enough] dollar transactions happening here. I would hate to see someone get burnt.

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  6. #6
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    The root of the topic of this thread is that there is no buyer protection if you send money through PayPal as a gift.
    Simply put, you don't send it as a "gift". You send it as a transaction to purchase.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


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  7. #7
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    Simply put, you don't send it as a "gift". You send it as a transaction to purchase.
    What about the OP where the seller SPECIFICALLY says to gift the money?

    Just a quick look at C&V:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...peed-Freewheel
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...et-Levers-23-8
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...kset-dust-cups

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  8. #8
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    Why should you care how others choose to do business? If the two parties are happy with the terms so be it.

  9. #9
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    Who says you have to comply, though? It seems that you have the choice of saying yes or no. Again, we only provide the market areas as a convenience and assume no liability for them. If they become too much of a problem, we'll simply eliminate them altogether, since there isn't any real financial incentive to running them. Titanium membership pays us far less than the ads do over a year, for example. It's not a wash.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


    . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

  10. #10
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    Why should you care how others choose to do business? If the two parties are happy with the terms so be it.
    Because I feel it's not a matter of "if" but "when" as far as someone getting scammed. When someone does inevitably get scammed, it'll at least somewhat fall on the site itself. It's already apparent in this thread, that were the for sale forums to be too much drama or pain, they'd get eliminated outright. I like the for sale forums. I would like to keep the for sale forums around. It's 100% within the established authority and scope of the moderation team (shown by the mandate for clear pricing). It's an evolutionary move, and one that many other forums with classifieds are doing. Plus, I think it violates the Paypal TOS if that matters. [It doesn't]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    If they become too much of a problem, we'll simply eliminate them altogether, since there isn't any real financial incentive to running them.
    So let's take action to keep them around!



    At the end of the day, it just seems like a sticky with a disclaimer or at least a public service announcement (like the one I linked on WW) might be a decent idea to cover the backsides of all parties.

    And that ends my forum suggestion.

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  11. #11
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    Because I feel it's not a matter of "if" but "when" as far as someone getting scammed. When someone does inevitably get scammed, it'll at least somewhat fall on the site itself. It's already apparent in this thread, that were the for sale forums to be too much drama or pain, they'd get eliminated outright. I like the for sale forums. I would like to keep the for sale forums around. It's 100% within the established authority and scope of the moderation team (shown by the mandate for clear pricing). It's an evolutionary move, and one that many other forums with classifieds are doing. Plus, I think it violates the Paypal TOS if that matters. [It doesn't]

    So let's take action to keep them around!


    I'm sure there are more important things for you to wring your hands about. The last thing we need are more 'safety nannies'.

  12. #12
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    This right here is why you don't gift payments.

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ng-Headset-300

    I have a feeling he'll wind up sending it, but I'd be a lot more nervous right now if I had gifted him the money.

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  13. #13
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    A very simple solution: Use judgement, and don't enter into a transaction you are uncomfortable about.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


    . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

  14. #14
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    This right here is why you don't gift payments.

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ng-Headset-300

    I have a feeling he'll wind up sending it, but I'd be a lot more nervous right now if I had gifted him the money.
    Just because you are a nervous Nelly is no reason to force it on the rest of us. Plus, Paypal isn't going to do a damn thing to rectify a problem in a private 'he said, she said' transaction, gift or not.

  15. #15
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Paypal sure is going to do someone about a transaction where nothing was shipped.

    I don't see harm in a sticky along the lines of "hey, heads up, if you gift a payment you're taking this into your own hands, and we here at BF recommend you take advantage of the buyer protections at PayPal.". If anything I can see how that would be advantageous to the owners of these here forums.

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  16. #16
    Senior Member tarwheel's Avatar
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    I recently bought a frame in a transaction where the buyer requested a "gift" payment but would accept regular PayPal for $25 more. I paid the extra $25 because I wanted the buyer protection that PayPal offers. I had no reason to distrust the seller but was not willing to send him hundreds of dollars with no recourse if the transaction turned bad.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    Paypal sure is going to do someone about a transaction where nothing was shipped.

    I don't see harm in a sticky along the lines of "hey, heads up, if you gift a payment you're taking this into your own hands, and we here at BF recommend you take advantage of the buyer protections at PayPal.". If anything I can see how that would be advantageous to the owners of these here forums.
    If the sellers simply says they shipped it they PP won't do a damn thing. The last thing BF needs is to be a babysitter. You must really think the adults here are stupid. Urgh.

  18. #18
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem sending things as gifts because I only buy stuff from users with a lot of posts and pretty much everything I buy is less than ~$30. But that's just me. If I bought something big, I'd rather do it as a purchase, even if it cost me a little more. I sold someone something here are a purchase and then they started getting all up about how the box arrived torn open and empty. I got worried that they'd get a paypal refund so I contacted their post office, talked to their postal worker who said it'd been intact when he dropped it off and then told the guy, I'd split the loss by refunding half his payment if he could send me a copy of a police report showing his mail had been stolen. Never heard from him again.
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  19. #19
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Every time I make a person-to-person payment on PayPal, I do it as a gift, whether the payee requests it or not. If I lose out, meh. I don't spend a lot online so if something happens and I'm out $10 or $30 or whatever, so be it.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



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  20. #20
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    If the sellers simply says they shipped it they PP won't do a damn thing. The last thing BF needs is to be a babysitter. You must really think the adults here are stupid. Urgh.
    All I'm asking for is some kind of reminder from the site's admins to users in the for sale forum that they leave themselves vulnerable. I don't know why you're in such a huff about it. This is a forum for suggestions, and I don't really think mine is as poor of a suggestion as you're making it out to be.

    It's the way the web is going, and rather than falling behind and having to resort to some knee-jerk overarching policy like the new copyright policy, I thought maybe that the BF administrators might want to catch this one before they have to take drastic measures.

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  21. #21
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    All I'm asking for is some kind of reminder from the site's admins to users in the for sale forum that they leave themselves vulnerable. I don't know why you're in such a huff about it. This is a forum for suggestions, and I don't really think mine is as poor of a suggestion as you're making it out to be.

    It's the way the web is going, and rather than falling behind and having to resort to some knee-jerk overarching policy like the new copyright policy, I thought maybe that the BF administrators might want to catch this one before they have to take drastic measures.
    The copyright policy has been around for years. The reminder announcement was needed because we were getting a lot of violations.

    Bike Forums does not want to dictate how people conduct business, and the Marketplace threads have the same terms:

    "We provide an infrastructure platform only, all sales are between the involved members. We'll assist as much as is possible in a dispute, but in the end, it's between thee and your seller/buyer."
    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    Does the ignore feature just replace all of the poster's text with "Said something stupid" because that would be awesome.
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

  22. #22
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    All I'm asking for is some kind of reminder from the site's admins to users in the for sale forum that they leave themselves vulnerable. I don't know why you're in such a huff about it. This is a forum for suggestions, and I don't really think mine is as poor of a suggestion as you're making it out to be.

    It's the way the web is going, and rather than falling behind and having to resort to some knee-jerk overarching policy like the new copyright policy, I thought maybe that the BF administrators might want to catch this one before they have to take drastic measures.
    Adults don't need to be reminded of every possible pitfall. Does the warning on a hair-curler reminding you not to stick it in your eye also make you feel safer?

  23. #23
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    No, but it removes liability from the manufacturer and seller.

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  24. #24
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Enough.


    The thread isn't going to devolve into an argument. Closed.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


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    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

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