carleton

Hi, all.

Can someone point me to a good reference or tell me a bit about the different flavors of steel and their properties?

I'm considering having a track sprint frame made and I'd like to know what options are out there in terms of metal. Not just go for what the builder has on-hand.

Thanks!

Carleton


EDIT: Moving to /framebuilders.

Andrew R Stewart 

Pretty much all weight, stiffness, ride are all the same for all practical steels found in bikes. So the tube diameter and wall thickness are the way to fine tune the result. As the walls get thinner the higher strength steels tend to dent less.

There are dozens of articles and forum postings that go into more details. I would avoid the marketing claims of manufactures (of tubing as well as frames).

I would hope that you pick a builder who is motivated by more then what is most convenient for his inventory management. Andy.

TugaDude

+1 to what andrew said. I would only add that advances such as air hardening and heat tempering can also affect ride characteristics.

I would be leery of making my own tubing choices. I think a good custom builder, through asking a lot of questions, can design a tube set that meets your needs. An experienced builder knows what works, that's part of what you are paying for. They will mix and match diameters, thicknesses and perhaps even shapes in order to "dial in" a frame for you.

Good luck!

fietsbob

In addition to the various steel alloys used to make the seamless drawn Tubing You also have diameters ..

A larger Tube is stiffer than a smaller tube in comparing Out side diameters ..

and so a stiff match sprint frame may use Oversize Tubes say 1,25" downtube and seat tube 1.125" top tube ..


Aluminum (hydroformed) and Carbon fiber can be reshaped where Tubes in steel May Not .

but some ovalizing may gusset things in the directions of forces to be applied.

but yea Pick a professional Frame builder But dont try to do his job for him they will discuss the options

unterhausen

I doubt that anyone is going to be guided by what they have in stock. At least, nobody that you would want to have build your bike anyway. I would go with someone that has built track bikes in the past

Andrew R Stewart 

Please educate me on how the tempering/heat treating will effect ride characteristics. Limit the explanation to only the treatments and not their enabling different walls, butt profiles or diameters. thanks. Andy.

carleton

Thanks, all, for replying. Sorry for the late reply. Been swamped with work.

I've had 2 Tiemeyers (6061) made in the past. He's truly a modern master. But, sadly, he retired in 2013. I've also owned some high-end carbon frames (LOOK KG496, Felt TK1, Dolan DF3). Pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carleton_hall

So, I'm trying to figure out what to do next

By the way, I'm a big guy (240lbs) and I can make over 2,100W. So, a heavy-ish frame isn't as much of a concern for me. So, maybe instead of a particular alloy I should be thinking about wall thicknesses?

unterhausen

not so much wall thicknesses, but tube diameter. Even with your weight and power, you aren't going to cause one of the better tube sets any worries, and you probably want a fairly stiff bike. Diameter has a much stronger effect on stiffness than wall thickness. If it was me, I'd probably build with the Uber over size Columbus Spirit for Lugs. But really, the trick is to find someone that builds track bikes.

carleton

Ah. Thanks for the correction.

I'm working with a guy now who builds track bikes. He's sort of young but open to options. I just want to do some research on my own as well.

Blue Belly

Experience is what you want. A guy who has built 20 frames is still learning what a guy who has built 500 has already forgotten. The little tricks of any trade, feedback & hands on experience are worth their weight in steel.

carleton

On a related note. I just took delivery of this Snyder Cycles frame.



The reason I started this thread is because I want to have another one made that is even more inline with my visions. With the one above, I set the geometry and whatnot, but I want to make a few more changes (tubing, dropouts) to truly rival modern carbon sprint bikes

CliffordK

I haven't started building frames yet (other than my hack job last fall, and the cargo restoration I'm working on). Hopefully I'll do some brazing this summer...
So, I'm also exploring options.

Anyway:
Browse some of the tubing sets available at Nova.
TUBE SETS :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.

That will give you some idea of different tubes, sizes, butting, and etc. I'm not sure if Nova is making their own tubes. They also have pages on lugs & misc parts.

Reynolds and Columbus have pages on their tubes, but seen to be a bit terse with the information they provide.
Columbus Tubi
Reynolds Technology

Also look at KVA Stainless.
Bicycle Frame Tubing | KVA STAINLESS?

Several builders just use straight 4130 chromoly.

I agree, talk to your builder about what you want, and be open to their suggestions. Most "modern" steel tubing can be either tig welded or brazed, or lugged and brazed.

unterhausen

that's a nice looking bike, what track is that?

My vintage track bike had two seat post binder bolts. Is there a good reason to do that?

carleton

Yeah, mine is straight 4130 (I think, need to double check), nothing fancy.

Thanks!

Dick Lane Velodrome in Atlanta: The Dick Lane Velodrome

Being a heavy rider on a bumpy track, I've had seatposts slip down. There's nothing more disconcerting than riding at 40MPH shoulder to shoulder with a guy and hit a bump and your saddle drops an inch. There's no coasting. So, the only thing you can do is shut off the gas, concede the race, go into the infield and reset your seatpost.

Seatpost issues are why I sold my 2010 Felt TK1 ($4000+ frameset).

It's amazing how little things can ruin a great bike.

Blue Belly

I used Zero Uno tubing on the frame I brazed up. I love the bike but, the tubing, though oversized, is a lot more Flexy than I like. I built the chainstays extremely short(on purpose) & the rear triangle still moves quite a bit, under load. I have to open the brakes up more than I like to eliminate rub. These are the types of issues experience will buy you.

fietsbob

what does Sir Chris Hoy ride?

carleton

This:


Manufactured by McLaren Applied Technologies

Prices:
Frame: £25k
Handlebars (Sprint or pursuit): £23-24k
Cranks:£18k

fietsbob

what about before the Royal knighthood? and all those Olympic medals?

carleton

British Cycling got a huge influx of money when they became recipients of Lottery funding. Before the, the Brits were sort of rag-tag with racers using their own personal stuff...a lot like the Americans do now. Exactly like that.

When they got the money they poured a lot of it into R&D and they came up the "British Super Bikes" by McLaren. The book Heroes, Villains, and Velodromes explains the rise of British Cycling from a track point of view, highlighting Hoy.
https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Villain.../dp/000726531X

It's a good read.

Before that, Hoy was riding a Dolan DF3. The DF3 is sort of a bike of reference for track sprinting. At the time, it was like $3,300USD for frameset.

fietsbob

yes, Notice the investment in Indoor tracks in the UK & Europe.

Winter is track season in places like Ghent.. and Manchester..

there are outdoor ones too, like Roubaix..

Someone makes wing shaped steel tube for the downtubes ... tandems used a rolled oval to connect the BB's.

bill meyer

I understand Tom Kellogg, of Spectrum, knows a lot about what makes a track frame work, might be a good resource to contact.

kylecycler

Shand Cycles in Livingston, Scotland, built a Keirin track bike last summer in collaboration with Sir Chris Hoy and Evans Cycles' designer James Olsen (Evans market the Hoy bike range) - it's a beauty.
Sir Chris Hoy Keirin track bike collaboration - Shand Cycles
It would be nice if they could build you a replica, carleton, but presumably it's a one-off! It might give you and the builder you're working with some ideas, though.

You'll see that Shand turned it down to begin with since they had no experience of track bikes, but they had the best consultant in the business in the Big Man himself, and James Olsen also knows his stuff. They ended up just doing their own thing to some extent anyway. Shand says they used Columbus MAX tubing except for one Reynolds tube. It's hard to see the construction in the photos, but the joints would be fillet brazed and it has a lugged crown fork (I think production Shands were all fillet brazed until recently; they've now switched to TIG welding, perhaps because fillet brazing couldn't keep up with demand). Their paint process is exceptional - all graphics are painted using vinyl masks; they don't use decals. You wish they'd given the actual BB drop, chainstay length and trail though...

Steven Shand did a Q&A session with Eric Estlund - Winter Bicycles - at Bespoked, the UK equivalent of NAHBS, in 2012. Eric won Best Track Bike at the show in 2013 and '14.
https://vimeo.com/43220275

Also found this fascinating article about track bike geometry by Don Walker, founder of NAHBS:
Urban Velo #3 - Bicycle Culture on the Skids

carleton

I'm familiar with that bike. It's beautiful. I didn't notice the mention of Columbus MAX and Reynolds before.

But, Hoy never raced it. It is a commemorative bike. That being said, the angles are probably in line with modern race frames. I'm pretty sure I have similar (if not the same) angles in the frame that I just had made. I'm guessing:

74deg HTA
74deg STA
45mm BB drop
30mm fork offset

carleton

That being said, here is Francois Pervis racing in Japan (for off-season $$$) on an NJS-spec'd bike.


Longer video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GWw31J60cM

But, I wouldn't be subject to the strict, archaic NJS restrictions. So, maybe I can make a steel bike that's better.

fietsbob

AFAIK, Keirin is a Flying start sprint .. seems Matched sprint is almost at a stop before the final sprint laps..

Yea NJS is about keeping the Bikes the same .. because Japan Bets Money on Bike races ..