Is all double-butted 4130 created equally?
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Is all double-butted 4130 created equally?
I was hoping this would be a good forum to clear this up for me. I see a lot of small-scale frame builders working exclusively with double-butted chromoly, just like the likes of Surly, etc. Outside of craftsmanship and geometry, can there be different quality in the actual tubing?
I ask because I recently picked up a 1990 Schwinn Traveler for $35 and have been told by pretty much everyone that it's not worth putting money into building it up because it's "low end" but the frameset is the exact same tubing as stuff I see selling for hundreds (sometimes thousands) new.
I ask because I recently picked up a 1990 Schwinn Traveler for $35 and have been told by pretty much everyone that it's not worth putting money into building it up because it's "low end" but the frameset is the exact same tubing as stuff I see selling for hundreds (sometimes thousands) new.
#2
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seamed (rolled sheet welded into a tube) and seamless, alike can be processed to be thinner in the center, and thicker on the ends ..
4130 is a specific alloy combination , other tube mills for the bike industry have variations on those mineral contents,
and special heat treatment processes.
your 1990 Schwinn traveller may not even use Chromoly steel tube.. or be butted tubes .
does it ring differently when tapping on it in the center than as it gets closer to the ends?
4130 is a specific alloy combination , other tube mills for the bike industry have variations on those mineral contents,
and special heat treatment processes.
your 1990 Schwinn traveller may not even use Chromoly steel tube.. or be butted tubes .
does it ring differently when tapping on it in the center than as it gets closer to the ends?
Last edited by fietsbob; 07-01-15 at 09:30 AM.
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Have these people you've talked to seen the bike? Schwinn often re-used the same model names over the years for bikes that were wildly different in quality. If the frame fits you and you like the geometry I'd say it is definitely worth building up.
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What is your definition of the term "quality"?
The metallurgical "qualities" of tubes can be manipulated to achieve different results. These resulting "qualities" can be used to achieve design goals, or not. Butted tubes allow less weight and still have enough strength where the stresses and joining strength losses are the greatest, at the ends. Heat treated alloys can result in higher strengths which might allow for less metal (thinner walls) to be used and still be strong enough.
But many people use "quality" as a non descript reference to some value. Here the masses are defining what the term means. This is part and parcel of marketing. So depending on how you define "quality" the answer will be different. Andy.
The metallurgical "qualities" of tubes can be manipulated to achieve different results. These resulting "qualities" can be used to achieve design goals, or not. Butted tubes allow less weight and still have enough strength where the stresses and joining strength losses are the greatest, at the ends. Heat treated alloys can result in higher strengths which might allow for less metal (thinner walls) to be used and still be strong enough.
But many people use "quality" as a non descript reference to some value. Here the masses are defining what the term means. This is part and parcel of marketing. So depending on how you define "quality" the answer will be different. Andy.
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https://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1990...LL/1990_08.jpg
"full chrome-moly double butted frame and fork"
Could different heat treatment processes make the metal lighter/stronger? I'm just curious as to how this frames tubes are different than those on a Surly Pacer because that's pretty much what I'm looking for (long distance, comfortable ride with clearance for 28-32s). Obviously TIG vs lugged and geometry make a difference.
Also I was in my lbs and was looking at the Raleigh Furley and I asked if it was Raleigh's answer to the Surly Crosscheck and they told me that the Raleigh was a MUCH better frame. Again, both double butted 4130 (although disc vs cantilever mounts).
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Cross-Check | Bikes | Surly Bikes
"full chrome-moly double butted frame and fork"
Could different heat treatment processes make the metal lighter/stronger? I'm just curious as to how this frames tubes are different than those on a Surly Pacer because that's pretty much what I'm looking for (long distance, comfortable ride with clearance for 28-32s). Obviously TIG vs lugged and geometry make a difference.
Also I was in my lbs and was looking at the Raleigh Furley and I asked if it was Raleigh's answer to the Surly Crosscheck and they told me that the Raleigh was a MUCH better frame. Again, both double butted 4130 (although disc vs cantilever mounts).
Furley (Dirt)
Cross-Check | Bikes | Surly Bikes
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I'm not sure all chromoly is in fact 4130, but rather a general catch-all for a steel/chromium/molybdenum alloy. But, it should be similar.
Different bikes will also use different tubing sizes, thicknesses, as well as different additions such as dropouts, braze-ons, rack mounts, bottle mounts, cable routing, etc. Also lugs probably aren't needed with modern alloys, but they give the bike a nice classic look.
Fork, design, seat stay and chain stay design may affect the overall feel of the bike.
You are probably right that there is a group of under appreciated Japanese bikes from the 80's and 90's. I'm certainly not sure that my 1960's Colnago is any better than your 1990's Schwinn. Alloys have certainly changed over the decades, but the differences may be minimal, especially if not welding/brazing on the existing frames.
Schwinn made a lot of junk, and a few gems, and have given the entire brand a bad rap. Your bike would be much more valuable to simply repaint and add Colnago stickers to it.
There have certainly been changes in the last 10 to 15 years.
Better Brakes, Wheels, Cassettes, Gearing, Brifters, 1 1/8 threadless, 130mm dropouts... etc. But that doesn't mean your bike is irrelevant.
99% of the new frames are now being made in Asia anyway. One can still find a few small US builders like Bike Friday, as well as finding used USA made Treks or various European bikes... but I'm not going to say a Chinese bike is any better than your Japanese bike.
Different bikes will also use different tubing sizes, thicknesses, as well as different additions such as dropouts, braze-ons, rack mounts, bottle mounts, cable routing, etc. Also lugs probably aren't needed with modern alloys, but they give the bike a nice classic look.
Fork, design, seat stay and chain stay design may affect the overall feel of the bike.
You are probably right that there is a group of under appreciated Japanese bikes from the 80's and 90's. I'm certainly not sure that my 1960's Colnago is any better than your 1990's Schwinn. Alloys have certainly changed over the decades, but the differences may be minimal, especially if not welding/brazing on the existing frames.
Schwinn made a lot of junk, and a few gems, and have given the entire brand a bad rap. Your bike would be much more valuable to simply repaint and add Colnago stickers to it.
There have certainly been changes in the last 10 to 15 years.
Better Brakes, Wheels, Cassettes, Gearing, Brifters, 1 1/8 threadless, 130mm dropouts... etc. But that doesn't mean your bike is irrelevant.
99% of the new frames are now being made in Asia anyway. One can still find a few small US builders like Bike Friday, as well as finding used USA made Treks or various European bikes... but I'm not going to say a Chinese bike is any better than your Japanese bike.
#9
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The 1990 Traveler used True Temper double-butted chromoly. True Temper tubing would have been seamed, but the weld is so homogeneous it is virtually seamless after drawing and butting. My guess is that it's True Temper RCR, but I could be mistaken. Butting is 1.01/0.84/1.01. It's pretty stout.
Last edited by Scooper; 07-01-15 at 05:53 PM.
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I ask because I recently picked up a 1990 Schwinn Traveler for $35 and have been told by pretty much everyone that it's not worth putting money into building it up because it's "low end" but the frameset is the exact same tubing as stuff I see selling for hundreds (sometimes thousands) new.
I did a similar thing a few years ago. Took a mid level double butted road frame from from the late 1980s and built it up with modern components. It rode like a joy and I was really happy with the project. Then, about 11 months and 7,000 miles in the frame cracked at the bottom bracket. Had this been a modern frame, purchased new I would have been able to warranty the frame and get a replacement for free or minimal cost.
I think that's generally why people warn you away. The economics can make sense but often times for a lot of users, they don't.
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It's potentially as good as modern produced frames but the issue is always unknown use over a long period of time.
I did a similar thing a few years ago. Took a mid level double butted road frame from from the late 1980s and built it up with modern components. It rode like a joy and I was really happy with the project. Then, about 11 months and 7,000 miles in the frame cracked at the bottom bracket. Had this been a modern frame, purchased new I would have been able to warranty the frame and get a replacement for free or minimal cost.
I think that's generally why people warn you away. The economics can make sense but often times for a lot of users, they don't.
I did a similar thing a few years ago. Took a mid level double butted road frame from from the late 1980s and built it up with modern components. It rode like a joy and I was really happy with the project. Then, about 11 months and 7,000 miles in the frame cracked at the bottom bracket. Had this been a modern frame, purchased new I would have been able to warranty the frame and get a replacement for free or minimal cost.
I think that's generally why people warn you away. The economics can make sense but often times for a lot of users, they don't.
Hop over to the C&V forum and there are many bikes that have been actively on the road for a very long time. I've owned and ridden my old Colnago since 1982 as my primary bike. 33 years. And, the bike probably is at least 13 or 14 years older than that. 47 years?
My annual mileage has varied and I haven't tracked it ... perhaps 50,000 miles? 100,000? Carrying a rack or pulling a trailer is far beyond its original design specs. Lots of small parts replaced. The paint is bad, but the frame is still solid.
A lot depends on what you want and what you're willing to live with. I can imagine a broken BB shell is a major hassle. When did it go bad? On a trip? Locally? But... at $35 each... one could stock up on a lot of used bikes/frames for the cost of one Surly LHT frame.
And the old bikes have a little extra "character".
#13
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NB Surly has a Time Limit on their Materials and Workmanship frame warrantee .
Getting a New Trek 520, there is a Your lifetime frame warrantee.
Getting a New Trek 520, there is a Your lifetime frame warrantee.
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My old Raleigh was 4130... it's a lot heavier than butted cromo. I think 4130 is mild steel and is not butted --e.g., sort of like high-tech water pipes.
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I've seen a few broken frames... but I haven't broken one myself. Many of the warranties are also limited to the original purchaser... good if you want to buy new and hold onto it forever, but not much help in the used market.
I presume most of the 4130 is not butted... so perhaps one has straight 1mm walls on most of the tubes vs 1mm/0.8mm/1mm. So, perhaps the final frame is about 10% or 20% or so heavier than the butted variety.
Still, not bad.
You may find butted steel with a different name, but similar composition.
#16
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"AISI 4130 alloy steel contains chromium and molybdenum as strengthening agents. It has low carbon content, and hence it can be welded easily. The datasheet given below provides more details about AISI 4130 alloy steel.
Fabrication and Heat Treatment
Machinability
AISI 4130 steel can be easily machined using conventional methods. However, machining becomes difficult when the hardness of the steel is increased.
Forming
Forming of AISI 4130 steel can be performed in the annealed condition.
Welding
Welding of AISI 4130 steel can be performed by all commercial methods.
Heat Treatment
AISI 4130 steel is heated at 871°C (1600°F) and then quenched in oil. This steel is usually heat-treated at temperatures ranging from 899 to 927°C (1650 to 1700°F)."
AISI 4130 Alloy Steel (UNS G41300)
4130 Chrome Moly steel is available in plain gauge or butted tubing for bicycle frames.
-Bandera
#17
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4130 is chromium-molybdenum alloy (chromoly) and may be butted or straight gauge, so as CliffordK and Bandera say, thicker walled tubes will weigh more than thinner walled tubes.
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IDK how a regular customer a strong big rider is treated when a Dealer seeks to warrantee a frame in a Big city shop thru QBP
Small towns and this LBS, A Trek dealer (that buys Surlys on special order), I have some communications with Owner-Mgr ..
Limited lifetime Vs Lifetime . Is the customer a Lawyer?
Small towns and this LBS, A Trek dealer (that buys Surlys on special order), I have some communications with Owner-Mgr ..
Limited lifetime Vs Lifetime . Is the customer a Lawyer?
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Warranties serve many purposes. To the consumer they convey confidence in the product and further justification for a purchase choice. To the manufacturer they can be a marketing device, a guide for how to handle issues and a method of retaining a customer. To the lawyers they are another hurdle to get past for further claims. But the bottom line is cost. How much does loosing a customer cost? Andy.
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And public relations. When I handled warranty issues for Trek, there were many times when I authorized warranty coverage for questionable issues just because I felt it more important to have satisfied customers spreading the word than to nit-pick the details of the incident in question.
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I was hoping this would be a good forum to clear this up for me. I see a lot of small-scale frame builders working exclusively with double-butted chromoly, just like the likes of Surly, etc. Outside of craftsmanship and geometry, can there be different quality in the actual tubing?
I ask because I recently picked up a 1990 Schwinn Traveler for $35 and have been told by pretty much everyone that it's not worth putting money into building it up because it's "low end" but the frameset is the exact same tubing as stuff I see selling for hundreds (sometimes thousands) new.
I ask because I recently picked up a 1990 Schwinn Traveler for $35 and have been told by pretty much everyone that it's not worth putting money into building it up because it's "low end" but the frameset is the exact same tubing as stuff I see selling for hundreds (sometimes thousands) new.
The one good thing about an old American bike is that what it is made of is probably a reasonably open book.
I don't see a lot of difference in the quality of any of the tubing I get, which is mostly generic butted, 4130, or high tens. The tubes have different qualities, but that is another mater.
On heat treatment, it is largely irrelevant to what I take to be the order of bike you are after. When a bike is designed consideration has to be given to stiffness, strength, and toughness. In bikes like touring bikes that may require all three there isn't going to be a lot you can do with heat treated super tubing that will make any difference. It is mostly something for upper end bikes, for athlete weight people, for racing. Which doesn't seem to be the question.
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Butted tubing at the cheap end is often the three main tubes and often amounts to 9 thou per tube over say 18 x 3 inches. I think that is around 2.5 ounces a tube depending on specifics. Not nothing but next to nothing in most applications. And in many cases the seat tube is playing by other rules anyway. So you could be look at 2/3rds of that saving.
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Of course, 4130 steel tubes can vary widely in a number of characteristics, including wall thickness, butting, heat treatment, and seamless vs seamed forming, to name a few.