honesthans

I want to try building a lugged frame, and had some questions about equipment selection.
Basically, the 2 most expensive items seem to be the torch and regulators, and I'd like to buy those online where I have the best selection and prices. I'm hoping that the local welding store can help source the rest of the outfit when I go to collect the tanks. But specifically I'm confused about the following equipment.

What single stage regulator (I can't afford the 2 stage models at this point) would be best for frame building, and could anyone recommend specific models? Smith and Victor both offer a lot of different models in the same price range, and I don't really understand the differences between regulator duty grades or what other considerations would be best for this type of brazing. I've read some posts say for instance that a larger diaphragm model, or one with smaller gauge values is better for bike building, but I'm not sure how to tell about those things just from the product blurb.

Also, I going to buy the Smith AW1A1 torch, and I'd like some suggestions on what welding tips would be useful for frame building? -Thanks

unterhausen

An AW1A is a good choice. That's what I use for my main torch. I use tip sizes 1-8. A good starter set is an AW 201,203, and 205. Some people are pretty particular about their regulators, but I don't think this is something you really need to worry about. I just asked the counter person for advice. They are going to need to sell you adapters anyway. If you live near someone that repairs regulators, they would be a good place to go to buy.

I would get small hoses instead of the big ones. I'm somewhat reluctant to recommend teflon hoses, if you drop something hot on them it's going right through. Tinman Tech is a good source for that. I got some 'a' size hoses somewhere, but I don't remember where. Maybe McMaster Carr.

You definitely want either an A1WA or a J28 (or clones) aircraft-style torch. Unless you're a weightlifter, the bigger torches are a workout and nobody needs that when building a bike frame

Doug Fattic 

Oxygen regulators come with different pressure range options. It is typical that a company will make 4 different options within the same model. While all of them will work okay, the best ones for brazing have the narrowest range probably from 0 to 40 psi. The greatest range model would be something like 5 to 200 psi. The operating range you will likely be working with when brazing is between 4 and 7 psi. The the lowest range model is easier to adjust at the lower pressures because it takes more turns of the T handle to change the pressure in the line. Also the bigger the diaphragm, the more stable it can hold the pressure in the line. What this means is that the flame does not need as much adjustment to keep a neutral frame while you are using it. They all work so it is a matter what you are willing to pay.

If price is your primary consideration, you might want to consider using a BBQ propane tank instead of buying an acetylene tank. They are much cheaper and the tank lasts a lot longer. And the many places that sell them make them much more convenient to get refills. While acetylene tips and mixers will kinda work okay with propane, it works better with propane specific tips. For these you would need the Victor J-28 torch handle or Uniweld 71 with the propane specific UN-J mixer/elbow. TEN (that doesn’t mean the number 10) tips (that come in sizes 0 to 5) attach to the UN-J.

The very best tips for propane are the ones for the Meco Midget torch handle. What is different about these tips is that around the main orifice are really small orifices that create a “ring of fire” around the main flame. However, I am not very fond of the shape of the Meco handle. They make a superior tip for acetylene too. Meco is now made by Victor. If you get a Meco torch, everything you need from the tanks to the tips is available online from TM Technologies. The main reason to buy from them is that their light hoses are awesome. They are more durable then Smith Kevlar hoses and much more flexible than standard rubber hoses. They make a bigger difference for beginners. Brazing motions are subtle and the weight and resistance of standard hoses can restrict movement.

Of course if you really want to save money, look around at Goodwill to see if there are any oxygen concentrators from estate donations. You don’t need a regulator with a concentrator and of course they create nearly pure oxygen out of the air so there is no need for refills. Refurbished ones can also be bought online for probably about the same price as a decent sized oxygen tank and regulator.

The cheapest online prices come from companies that do not stock the items themselves. They drop ship them from Victor or whoever is the manufacturer. This means the cheapest price for items can be offset by greater shipping costs because your total order can come from different places. They also take longer to get to you too.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

honesthans

Thanks, from the replies above, I think for my situation right now that it may be best to go with a 02 tank/ propane setup. Just a couple more questions:

The victor J28 with its accessories is a better solution for propane/02 brazing then than the Smith torch? Does it give you better options or allow for a better job with the propane fuel source?

What are the things that I need to take into consideration when using acetylene regulators for a propane setup, or do they sell propane specific regulators for welding/brazing? I'm going to ask about this at airgas, but I'd like to hear the forum's feedback on this, also.

unterhausen

make sure your regulators are rated for propane, I think most are. A J28 clone is cheaper than a Smith AW1A, and it's easier to find the propane specific tips. If I was starting up today, I'd probably get an oxygen concentrator and propane.

Doug Fattic 

The propane mixer/elbow for the Smith AW1A torch handle is the AT-61 (the AT-60 is for acetylene). The screw on tips you would need that attach to the end of the AT-61 are the LT103, LT104 and LT105. Those are the sizes that work well for brazing bicycle frames with propane (even though they say they are for acetylene. The propane tips are too big for our use in most cases).

The reason I don’t like Smith tips for propane as well as Victor tips is because the Victor tips have a recessed end that help keep the flame attached to the tip. This is a bigger problem with propane than acetylene. The smaller a tip the greater the difficulty.

<www.Torchtools.com> sells Victor clone equipment (called Gentec) at discount pricing. They have the items in stock. The Gentec® 140T torch handle (= Victor® J-28) comes with check valves (about a $20 added on value). The propane specific mixer/elbow is the 881W mixer (= Victor® UN-J). The tips that are the right size for brazing frames are the 883-2 (= Victor® TEN 2, the 883-3 (= Victor® TEN 3) and the 883-4 (= Victor® TEN 4).

The cheapest Victor compatible torch handle is the Uniweld 71. It is lighter and bigger than other aircraft torch handles including the J-28. They can be found pretty cheap on Amazon. For awhile they were around $40 but frame builders have snapped them up at those prices. It is actually my favorite torch but the quality is not as good as Smith or Victor.

Decent propane specific regulators sell for less than $100 even at your local welding supply store. For safety, after the regulators you will want flashback arrestors and on the end of the hoses and torch handle you would be smart to put check valves. Don’t forget that somewhere in your line will need to be some kind of conversion from the B size fittings on the regulators to the A size fittings on your torch handle. Some hoses come with A fittings on one end and B on the other.

MassiveD

Sticky time. Doug has bared his soul, and having set up for propane a long time ago, I can say this is the most detailed naming names deal I have seen. STICKY TIME.



Also, while propane is your cheap option it is has it's net merits in many ways also, so it can be said to be a step up in tech as well as a step down in price.


Just by the by, on torches, aircraft torches are designed for gas welding like TIG. The weight and flexibility is an issue there. There seems to be a lot of faffing around with torches and brazing. Speaking of weight lifting, look at the jig here, at 5:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNsQpCL8LY

It seems ok with propane to use the red regulators they sell for weed burners and BBQ set-ups, I just grabbed the first one I saw, and it has since worked fine. They sell for as little as 10 bucks. It might be a good idea to get a two stage, but then depending on how far you take it, you may not be adjusting the pressure that much. You want something for real, for oxy as it is under very high pressure. It is probably better to spend the money on a concentrator. The lamp glass guys are tapping the home heating for their set-ups. altogether a little scary, but no high pressure, and no transportation.

Doug Fattic 

My suggestion for equipment from the tank to the tip would be: tank > regulator > flashback arrestor (there are 2 kinds, one is designed to attach to a regulator and the other to attach to a torch handle. They can not be interchanged because their male/female fittings allow gas flow only one way) > 3/16” T rated hose with B size fittings (R rated is for acetylene. T can be used with acetylene but R can not be used with propane) > B male/B male connector > TM Technologies light hose that has A fittings on both ends (they supply the hose with an A to B conversion) > A size check valves > Victor J-28 or some other Victor compatible torch handle > UN-J mixer elbow > TEN tips (for example 2-TEN).

Victor no longer makes TEN tips smaller than 2-TEN. <www.Torchtools.com> sells the Victor compatible Gentec tips in a smaller 0-TEN and 1-TEN size. The largest size that fits a UN-J is a 5-TEN tip. I use the 2 and 3 the most and those are the ones I would recommend buying if on a limited budget. I occasionally use the 1 and 4.

The one piece of equipment I like the most on that chain is light hoses. I definitely recommend buying the TM Technologies pair for $45. 10’ of that hose puts the tanks a bit too close to the work for my liking. I also don’t want them laying on the ground where they get dirty or hot flux can drip on them. From my tanks I suspend them from the ceiling with hooks. This is why I extend my light hoses with T rated 3/16” (the smallest available) rubber hose. They come in lengths of 12.5’ and 25’ (and longer if needed).

If I was starting again without having already gotten used to my own equipment, I would get the Meco Midget torch because their tips are the very best for propane. They are awesome and easier to light. The handle's boxy shape does not allow me to rotate it as easy to take the flame off of a joint for heat control. That is a small point and I’m sure I could have easily gotten used to adapting to its shape if I started with it from the beginning. I can use it just fine now but my history prevents me from making it my preference.

In my frame building classes both propane and acetylene are available for students to use. Most like using propane better. I like it because it is much cheaper, lasts longer between refills and is easier to transport. I also have the 4 main torch handles available to try.

Andrew R Stewart 

And Doug offers very real reasons to take a building course without saying so. Not only the chance to gain actual building techniques that are right in the beginning of one's path but also the chance to try various toolings and find what works well for you and your approach. Andy.

Doug Fattic 

It probably makes sense to mention the advantages of using an oxygen concentrator instead of bottled oxygen in some circumstances even though it might not apply to the OP’s question or needs. Oxygen concentrators are used in the medical industry to help patients breath when their lungs aren’t working properly. They take the nitrogen and carbon monoxide out of the air to supply 90%+ oxygen. In the States they are highly regulated for the medical industry but used ones can be sold for non-medical use. Lampworking (playing with molten glass) is the hobby where they are used the most. They can sometimes be found cheap at Goodwill or Craigslist even though they are expensive new. Of course the most likely source is from estate sales after someone dies. With luck they can be found for as low as $100. I bought a refurbished one from M&M Medical Repair in Beaverdale, PA for $300 that came with a 3 year warranty.

The most common ones have an output of 5 liters per minute (lpm). This is enough output for all Victor TEN torch tips but not enough for the bigger Meco Midget tips or a rosebud. That would require 2 operating in tandem. They have a knob that regulates the amount of oxygen flow. This takes the place of a regulator (since there is not a need to reduce the pressure in a tank). The obvious advantages are safety (no pressurized tank to explode or become an unguided missile), cost and convenience (no need to pay for refills or travel to get them). In bigger cities restrictions on transport (a welding supply store won’t let you put them in your car) or their delivery to non-comercial areas as well as housing and insurance regulations prevents in many circumstances pressurized tanks to be rented or refilled from a local welding supply store. BBQ tanks are the exception because they are popular and city authorities don’t want to be voted out of office for making unpopular rules.

I have found that different models vary quite a bit in output (even if they are all rated at 5 lpm). My DeVilbiss has a greater output than others and has a brass B size fitting that a welding hose can directly attach to. Many have just a barb that is designed for clear plastic hose to be shoved onto it. There are plastic converters with a barb on one end and a B fitting on the other that can convert the plastic hose to a welding rubber hose. A piece of plastic hose goes between the 2 barbs and the female end of the welding hose can attach to the male end of the plastic convertor.

A disadvantage of a concentrator is that it takes a couple of minutes to purge the lines until pure enough oxygen is coming out. It will blow out the flame if started too early. They also make some background noise.

Mark Kelly 

Doug: typo alert, you meant carbon dioxide (CO2).

There isn't enough CO in your air supply to need removing, while CO2 is currently 0.4% (and rising). If there was any CO a PSA wouldn't remove it as it is chemically too similar to oxygen.

Doug Fattic 

Of course! Thanks for the correction!

honesthans

Here's my shopping list based on the advice in the posts above. I'm going to talk to the people at airgas, but I'd also like to get the forum's blessing here or suggestions on any possible changes or additions before I actually buy all this stuff:

-Ameriflame MD71TH 6-Inch Light Duty Welding Handle (Uniweld 71 in an Ameriflame package) -$55
https://www.amazon.com/Ameriflame-MD7.../dp/B007VLW2O8

-Smith O2 regulator -$85
https://www.amazon.com/Smith-Oxygen-M.../dp/B001DDZAZS

-Smith propane regulator -$85
https://www.amazon.com/Medium-Duty-Re.../dp/B001CTJ5RM

-TM ultralight hose -$45
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/...welding-hoses/

Smith Flashback Arrestors - Torch Mount -$48.79
Smith Flashback Arrestors Cutting Torch Mount Set H743 - Gas Welding Accessories - Amazon.com

Victor UN-J nozzle -$45

Victor 2-4 TEN tips ~ $70

O2 tank, 3/8 type T hose and misc fittings and adapters from LWS




The only place I see where I could really shave anything off is by buying the Gentec torch tips instead of Victor, and I wonder if anyone can tell me if there is any noticeable difference in quality or results between the two? I'd be interested in a concentrator but haven't seen anything locally on craigslist.

Doug Fattic 

Gentec tips are not quite as nicely made as Victor tips. Whether they are good enough is still kind of an open question with me and would depend on the frequency of use. The main difference is that on the Gentecs the inside step down orifice diameter (right beyond the threads that attach it to the UN-J elbow) is slightly cone shaped like the angle on the tip of a drill bit. The Victor ones are a square 90º. The issue is that unless the Gentec tip is really tightened hard with a wrench on the UN-J, flame can come out of the back of the tip. If you only have one UN-J and are constantly changing tips this can become an issue with wear. When I see flame coming out where it isn’t supposed to I don’t like it.

To avoid flames coming out of the rear of the tip, I really tightened down my Gentec 3-TEN tip on my Victor UN-J. They became stuck together (probably because of the differences in manufacturing tolerances between the two companies) so now they are permanently joined.

If one is changing tips very often than having a mixer/elbow for each tip is faster and safer. One can change the UN-J from the torch handle by hand because they are designed to work that way with the help of a rubber O ring as a seal. The TEN tips need to be tightened with a small wrench onto the UN-J because they don’t have any seal help.

One interesting difference between my Gentec 3-TEN tip and my Victor 3-TEN tip is their body size. The Gentec is smaller like a 2-TEN and the Victor larger like a 4-TEN. Tips can get pretty hot so the extra size can theoretically be better for longer brazing times.

Victor no longer makes a 0 or 1-TEN tip. I like a 1-TEN for fillet brazing better than bigger sizes. This is a personal preference and will vary a lot between builders. The other point I should make is that pro users can easily adjust to using the same tip for various situations. For beginners it helps to have the right tip on for whatever they are doing. The fewer the challenges, the better the results are likely to be. In class I am changing tips often for students and have every tip size combined with a mixer elbow for convenience and safety.

eno

I bought my first oxy/propane kit six months ago and absolutely agree with the point Doug made about O2 regulator gauge range - it is tricky to set 2psi on a 100psi gauge. My regulator also seems to be very pessimistic on the supply side; as the tank pressure fell, it plunged from 500psi to zero in a hurry but there still seems to be plenty of gas left. I also find that the cheap single stage propane reg I bought is pretty hopeless. The supplied pressure seems to diminish as the tank cools so I tend to start with the output set at 10 psi or more and control it at the torch. I think if I was starting again I would go for a cheap reg without a gauge for the propane unless I was feeling very rich in which case a two stage might give a more consistant output.

Doug Fattic 

Honesthans, looking more closely at your choices I see some problems. The flashback arrestors you selected are size B and are too big to go on the end of your torch handle with A size fittings. This is not ideal for 3 reasons. First they put unneeded weight on the end of your torch. You could make that combination work with an A to B convertor but that would just add more weight and expense. And it is not as safe as putting flashback arrestors next to the regulators in case you accidentally cut the hose with your flame (or whatever) because there is nothing to then stop the fire from exploding your tank like a bomb. Remember that arrestors are location specific so the torch side arrestors you chose can only go next to a torch. You need a regulator side arrestor that has the male/female fittings reversed in relation to the only way it will let gas flow. I recommend small and light A size check valves on the end of your torch if you want maximum safety.

TM Technologies where you are buying your light hose has all the right equipment at similar prices to what you are paying through Amazon. The oxygen regulator you chose is designed for higher pressure applications and would make propanes flame adjustment difficult. It is much easier to light a propane flame under lower pressures like between 2 and 5 psi. A very slight turn on that Smith regulator sold on Amazon will change the pressure more than you would want (like eno said). This is what I suggest you get from TM: AWS-0217- Vic and AWS-0218-Vic oxygen and propane regulators for $87 each, AWS-0374 B size regulator flashback arrestors $34, AWS-0051-T 12.5’ T hose with a B fitting on one end and an A fitting on the other $18, AWS-0214 male A to male A adaptor $4.90, AWS-0052 Ultralight hose $45, AWS-0386 A size check valves $21. That is also the order you would put them on from the tanks to your torch handle.

My local welding supply store sells 80 CF tanks for $275 (the ones I use are bigger and cost more). You aren’t actually buying a specific tank that they refill each time, you are buying a tank that when empty you exchange for different full one. I pay just under $20 for a oxygen tank refill. The cost of a tank and regulator at my store are more than a refurbished oxygen concentrator from M&M Medical Repair. If you bought a smallish 40 CF tank for $175, they might be willing to let you buy a bigger tank for the difference in cost ($100 more) when you got tired of running to get refills. Policies between stores. This can keep your initial expenses down until you get more established. If you buy someone else’s tanks, your welding supply store has to approve they were inspected not that long ago that they can be put in their tank inventory. You would want to check with your local store 1st before buying something that they won’t refill.

I don’t have anything to urge about any of my suggestions but just trying to keep you from making money and time wasting mistakes by providing specific options I know will work together.