Steel or Aluminum?
10-28-16, 02:19 PM
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Steel or Aluminum?
I'm a total newbie. Have designed a center steering front and rear drive bike. Will ride on sandy rough dirt and paved roads. Half uphill, half downhill local ride. Want to use recumbent upright seat, 2"X26" tires, Shimano 8sp sealed hubs with front and rear chains. Am learning to weld steel. Should I use steel or aluminum for frame? Cost is a factor. Disc vs. rim brakes?
10-28-16, 03:25 PM
#2
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You learning TIG or just stick to make heavy things Like North Dakota Pipelines ?
The better Aluminum build facilities use a solution heat treatment process to neutralize the stresses built up by the various aluminum welding procedures..
Many Brands go to a few Taiwan Companies because they have the facilities and experience with getting high production numbers
of Aluminum bikes..
And steel and Carbon too.
Taipei Has a Big Bike Industry trade Show every year , Might be Worth a trip .
'/,
The better Aluminum build facilities use a solution heat treatment process to neutralize the stresses built up by the various aluminum welding procedures..
Many Brands go to a few Taiwan Companies because they have the facilities and experience with getting high production numbers
of Aluminum bikes..
And steel and Carbon too.
Taipei Has a Big Bike Industry trade Show every year , Might be Worth a trip .
'/,
Last edited by fietsbob; 10-28-16 at 03:30 PM.
10-28-16, 05:57 PM
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Steel won't need after welding stress relieving like AL will (how is alloy dependent). Steel is likely to be easier to play with for prototyping, certainly steel is less crack and catastrophic failure prone. But steel will often (not always) being a heavier frame. Steel will allow brazing for the bits and little pieces for cables, racks, and other small mounting points. (And I strongly suggest you learn how to braze). There is a reason that so many low cost or home made recumbents are in steel.
As to the brakes I suspect that disk would be better, given the off road aspects.
If this is a one off and you're the rider then it doesn't matter much (especially if there are no hills to climb
). But if you're going to market with this then the consumer's opinion is vital to the sellability. If this is the case perhaps a test group would be a good idea.
As to the brakes I suspect that disk would be better, given the off road aspects.
If this is a one off and you're the rider then it doesn't matter much (especially if there are no hills to climb
). But if you're going to market with this then the consumer's opinion is vital to the sellability. If this is the case perhaps a test group would be a good idea.
10-29-16, 12:03 AM
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Not TIG yet. Thanks for the heads up about Taipei trade show.
You learning TIG or just stick to make heavy things Like North Dakota Pipelines ?
The better Aluminum build facilities use a solution heat treatment process to neutralize the stresses built up by the various aluminum welding procedures..
Many Brands go to a few Taiwan Companies because they have the facilities and experience with getting high production numbers
of Aluminum bikes..
And steel and Carbon too.
Taipei Has a Big Bike Industry trade Show every year , Might be Worth a trip.
'/,
The better Aluminum build facilities use a solution heat treatment process to neutralize the stresses built up by the various aluminum welding procedures..
Many Brands go to a few Taiwan Companies because they have the facilities and experience with getting high production numbers
of Aluminum bikes..
And steel and Carbon too.
Taipei Has a Big Bike Industry trade Show every year , Might be Worth a trip.
'/,
10-29-16, 12:11 AM
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Great input, Andrew. Sounds like steel is a better fit. I'll definitely be playing with different head angles and trail combos. Then, I'll learn how to braze. Will go with the Shimano sealed hubs with disc brakes for front and rear. It's a one off for now--but if it works well, may go to market. How would I arrange a test group?
Steel won't need after welding stress relieving like AL will (how is alloy dependent). Steel is likely to be easier to play with for prototyping, certainly steel is less crack and catastrophic failure prone. But steel will often (not always) being a heavier frame. Steel will allow brazing for the bits and little pieces for cables, racks, and other small mounting points. (And I strongly suggest you learn how to braze). There is a reason that so many low cost or home made recumbents are in steel.
As to the brakes I suspect that disk would be better, given the off road aspects.
If this is a one off and you're the rider then it doesn't matter much (especially if there are no hills to climb ). But if you're going to market with this then the consumer's opinion is vital to the sellability. If this is the case perhaps a test group would be a good idea.
As to the brakes I suspect that disk would be better, given the off road aspects.
If this is a one off and you're the rider then it doesn't matter much (especially if there are no hills to climb
). But if you're going to market with this then the consumer's opinion is vital to the sellability. If this is the case perhaps a test group would be a good idea.
10-29-16, 02:53 PM
#6
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I recommend getting the fillet Brazing and TIG technique down before buying any expensive thin wall steel tubesets ..
10-29-16, 03:59 PM
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I find aluminum welding is a major pain.
Just get your aluminum heated to make a puddle and it falls away to nothing.
Bump your welding tip to your work, or perhaps get a splatter on it and it starts smoking and popping like crazy.
Nonetheless, it is a good material for things like trailer frames.
Steel is much more forgiving for the amateur welder.
I have tried both TIG and MIG welding, and TIG is a little easier to control for thin wall
tubing. Or, of course, brazing as mentioned above.
One of the issues you'll run into is that most high quality bike frames have been made out of a double butted chromoly tubing for at least the last 20 years, if not 60+ years (different alloys).
If you're doing a extreme custom build, then you'll either need to cut bicycle tubing in the middle, and lose the benefit of butted tubing, or acquire thin wall aircraft tubing that isn't butted, and thus a heavier frame.
For TIG welders, there are a few different types.
For TIG steel, one just needs a DC welder. High frequency start/stabilization is nice, but perhaps not necessary.
For TIG aluminum, one needs AC or square wave, plus the high frequency start.
You don't need a lot of power for thin wall tubing (100A?), but may want a little more if you plan on making tools and other steel projects.
Just get your aluminum heated to make a puddle and it falls away to nothing.
Bump your welding tip to your work, or perhaps get a splatter on it and it starts smoking and popping like crazy.
Nonetheless, it is a good material for things like trailer frames.
Steel is much more forgiving for the amateur welder.
I have tried both TIG and MIG welding, and TIG is a little easier to control for thin wall
tubing. Or, of course, brazing as mentioned above.
One of the issues you'll run into is that most high quality bike frames have been made out of a double butted chromoly tubing for at least the last 20 years, if not 60+ years (different alloys).
If you're doing a extreme custom build, then you'll either need to cut bicycle tubing in the middle, and lose the benefit of butted tubing, or acquire thin wall aircraft tubing that isn't butted, and thus a heavier frame.
For TIG welders, there are a few different types.
For TIG steel, one just needs a DC welder. High frequency start/stabilization is nice, but perhaps not necessary.
For TIG aluminum, one needs AC or square wave, plus the high frequency start.
You don't need a lot of power for thin wall tubing (100A?), but may want a little more if you plan on making tools and other steel projects.
12-20-16, 11:49 AM
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Steel is real, this is for sure the best way to start making frames. The simplicity over aluminum is obvious and the ride quality is usually better, weight is the main draw back but not terrible. If you are looking for tester, I am in Austin, TX with a lot of people who are always willing and able to ride bikes. Most of the people I work with as well as hang around with have been in the bike industry for at least five years upwards to twenty, with myself being in it for ten so just let me know.
12-25-16, 07:55 PM
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Thanks Bob. Will take your advice. For a first build, I'm leaning toward brazing a lugged True Temper $92 kit from Henry James. Have access to some junk steel frames for practice.
12-25-16, 08:03 PM
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Good information, Clifford. Have access to a good quality TIG welder--but have decided to begin with brazing a lugged steel frame.
I find aluminum welding is a major pain.
Just get your aluminum heated to make a puddle and it falls away to nothing.
Bump your welding tip to your work, or perhaps get a splatter on it and it starts smoking and popping like crazy.
Nonetheless, it is a good material for things like trailer frames.
Steel is much more forgiving for the amateur welder.
I have tried both TIG and MIG welding, and TIG is a little easier to control for thin wall
tubing. Or, of course, brazing as mentioned above.
One of the issues you'll run into is that most high quality bike frames have been made out of a double butted chromoly tubing for at least the last 20 years, if not 60+ years (different alloys).
If you're doing a extreme custom build, then you'll either need to cut bicycle tubing in the middle, and lose the benefit of butted tubing, or acquire thin wall aircraft tubing that isn't butted, and thus a heavier frame.
For TIG welders, there are a few different types.
For TIG steel, one just needs a DC welder. High frequency start/stabilization is nice, but perhaps not necessary.
For TIG aluminum, one needs AC or square wave, plus the high frequency start.
You don't need a lot of power for thin wall tubing (100A?), but may want a little more if you plan on making tools and other steel projects.
Just get your aluminum heated to make a puddle and it falls away to nothing.
Bump your welding tip to your work, or perhaps get a splatter on it and it starts smoking and popping like crazy.
Nonetheless, it is a good material for things like trailer frames.
Steel is much more forgiving for the amateur welder.
I have tried both TIG and MIG welding, and TIG is a little easier to control for thin wall
tubing. Or, of course, brazing as mentioned above.
One of the issues you'll run into is that most high quality bike frames have been made out of a double butted chromoly tubing for at least the last 20 years, if not 60+ years (different alloys).
If you're doing a extreme custom build, then you'll either need to cut bicycle tubing in the middle, and lose the benefit of butted tubing, or acquire thin wall aircraft tubing that isn't butted, and thus a heavier frame.
For TIG welders, there are a few different types.
For TIG steel, one just needs a DC welder. High frequency start/stabilization is nice, but perhaps not necessary.
For TIG aluminum, one needs AC or square wave, plus the high frequency start.
You don't need a lot of power for thin wall tubing (100A?), but may want a little more if you plan on making tools and other steel projects.
12-25-16, 08:07 PM
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DJH, thanks for your tester offer. Austin is a full day's drive for me from Tucson. Have a lot more development and design work to do first--but will contact you when I'm ready.
Steel is real, this is for sure the best way to start making frames. The simplicity over aluminum is obvious and the ride quality is usually better, weight is the main draw back but not terrible. If you are looking for tester, I am in Austin, TX with a lot of people who are always willing and able to ride bikes. Most of the people I work with as well as hang around with have been in the bike industry for at least five years upwards to twenty, with myself being in it for ten so just let me know.
01-03-17, 03:31 PM
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That sounds great! I will be in Tuscon towards the end of the summer if you'd like to meet up then, I'll keep you informed when it gets closer to the date!
01-08-17, 03:22 AM
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Use a lead alloy! Go for the MACHO option! 
(Just beïng ridiculous, of course.)
(Just beïng ridiculous, of course.)
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