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  1. #1
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    Sachs, Weigle, Mooney, Kellogg - a great read!

    Over on frameforum, there's a feature on a great story running in Bike Culture Magazine about the pioneering early days of US framebuilders Richard Sachs, JP Weigle, Peter Mooney, Chris Chance, Tom Kellogg and more.

    Well worth a read!

    link

  2. #2
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    Cool

    This article only proves my position on frame materials and the superiority of a well built steel frame over most of the stuff being pumped out in Asia for most of the big name corporations. These days, you get alot of bike for your dollar buying from one of the big companies but its not the same as a handcrafted piece of art that fits you perfectly, lasts a lifetime and will still be a work of art though it carries years of scratches and dings from miles of cycling.

  3. #3
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    I wouldn't go that far. We could probably start another thread on whether competantly executed handwork constitutes art, whether it's good art, and why people care so much one way or the other, but leaving that aside.... Who contends the point the the worst crap ever to come out of asia is somehow inferior to the greatest art to come from INsert the names of the greats from the referenced article. What gets the juices flowing is the arguments that sound somewhat more like "Picasso (or whoomever) was a great oil painter, therefore oil paint should be used to do everything from mark the center lines of highways to protect the shuttle on re-entry". The fact one style of bike is beloved or well executed does not make it right for every other use, or the predominant solutions for those uses crap.

  4. #4
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    Before this thread slips too far off topic and diverts attention from the original intention of highlighting a great article about the pioneers of the current US custom scene, here’s some thoughts for you guys to consider. . . .

    Let's face it, the job of a frame and fork is to attach a wheel at either end, keeping them in line and having a place to hang the rest of the components. Following that, it has to support your weight and cope with the forces you apply when pedalling. So, just about any frame you get, from whatever country of origin, in whatever material will do the job - for a while. So why all the debate?

    Choosing one over another is a bit like buying a burger. You can pop into McBurger and have one in your hand almost before you've asked for it; flipped by some sixteen year old who probably can't even spell hygiene let alone understand its importance; made from contents of more than one origin and heavily disguised with a thick layer of oil and colorings to mask the blandness underneath.

    Or you can choose to have your burger flipped personally by Gordon Ramsey or some other Michelin-starred master-chef of your choosing; expertly prepared, presented and cooked by the chef himself and backed by years of experience; served up just as you ordered with exactly the side order and garnish you prefer and made from the finest, quality-assured ingredients. It’ll leave you with a satisfying, pleasant aftertaste long after purchase and with no risk of any unexpected little 'accidents' on the way home.

    Which would you prefer? Sure, the cordon blue burger will definitely cost more, but would you be happy to pay the extra? Would you feel the extra cost and expense was justified when the dish arrived? Would you consider it worth the wait? Would you be confident in the quality of the ingredients and their preparation? Would you get what you asked for?

    That’s basically the choices and decisions you make when you decide to go custom or not. One "chef" may prefer to work with one set of “ingredients” and if you prefer someone else’s ingredients, fine - choose them. If you absolutely must have ketchup with it, choose the chef who is happy and willing to add the ketchup. He may offer some alternatives, but if you insist, he’ll probably whip you up a freshly-made sauce rather than plonk a squeezy bottle down in front of you. Why? Because he gives a s**t.

    Then again, if you’re a McBurger kind of guy, then you’re probably a McBike kind of guy too.

    Now, back to the original article, which is still HERE

    And while you're at it, read THIS ONE too
    Last edited by neilwheel; 03-19-07 at 02:25 AM.

  5. #5
    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    What exactly is 'Maverick' about making a lugged road bike frame that is essentially the same as the millions that came before them?
    Sure, these fellas were raising the quality bar well before I was born, but the only 'Maverick' here is Chris Chance. He's the only one that ventured into that big scary world of not riding on a road, and also the only one that created an image for himself that was fresh, irreverent and modern.

    Other than that, the article is a rehash of things everyone already knows, combined with a fluff piece for NAHBS and the established old-school builders. No mention of any of the 'new' artisans that have appeared on the scene in the last 20 years.

    On top of that Neil, this cross-posting to increase traffic to your own website is just a little distasteful, and a tad hypocritical considering you banned me from frameforum for dare suggesting that a certain mates lugs were made in Taiwan.

    There comes a time when self-serving agrandisement starts to get a little wearisome.

    Of course, I won't bother touching the fact that a Michelin stared chef wouldn't even make a hamburger in the first place, that it's cordon bleu not blue, and that at a top end restaurant, you don't 'get what you ask for', you get what you're given. I also won't touch the fact that many a designer and fabricator in a production or even semi production environment sure as hell does give a **** about the quality of their work. Even Sachs himself has professed that the quality of production bikes has gone through the roof in the past 20 years, and if you don't agree maybe you should go into the LBS and check out a Time VRS or a Specialized Epic.

    Now dear reader, in the efforts to balance things out (because if I don't, who will?), here are some links to modern builders doing some work that IMHO eclipses that of the established ones. They'll probably not get much publicity on frameforum, although I could be wrong because, well, I don't go there. I don't own any shares in any of their companies, none of them spend advertising dollars with me, I have no reason to increase traffic to their websites short of the fact that I think what some of these guys are doing is unprecendented.

    Dave Bohm - Bohemian Bicycles
    Sacha White - Vanilla Bicycles
    Geoff Jones - Jones Bikes
    Steve Stickel - Still doesn't have a website.
    Chris Zanotti - Mint Cycles
    Jim Kish - Kish Bicycles
    Nick Crumpton - Crumpton Composites
    Kent Eriksen - Eriksen Cycles

    I also have to mention two guys that aren't building anymore but I whish they were because their work is simply the best I've ever seen - namely Don Ferris of Anvil, and Brian Caulfield of Kavik Bicycles (Who I suspect is the designer of the new Felt FS platform.)

    Okay, se there ya go. I feel very calm and Karmic now that balance has been restored to the Force.

    Breakfast I will finish now, Coffee I will drink....hrm....yes......
    Last edited by Thylacine; 03-19-07 at 04:23 PM.
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    What exactly is 'Maverick' about making a lugged road bike frame that is essentially the same as the millions that came before them?
    the word maverick comes from the article's title; if it irks you,
    why not pose the question to the publisher or the writer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Sure, these fellas were raising the quality bar well before I was born, but the only 'Maverick' here is Chris Chance. He's the only one that ventured into that big scary world of not riding on a road, and also the only one that created an image for himself that was fresh, irreverent and modern.
    here is some chris chance history -
    http://www.serotta.com/forum/showpos...83&postcount=4
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Other than that, the article is a rehash of things everyone already knows, combined with a fluff piece for NAHBS and the established old-school builders. No mention of any of the 'new' artisans that have appeared on the scene in the last 20 years.
    the article originated with bike culture; if it irks you,
    why not pose the question to the publisher or the writer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    On top of that Neil, this cross-posting to increase traffic to your own website is just a little distasteful, and a tad hypocritical considering you banned me from frameforum for dare suggesting that a certain mates lugs were made in Taiwan.
    There comes a time when self-serving agrandisement starts to get a little wearisome.
    it's the internet; cross-posting is a contact sport. get
    used to it. PS all of my cast parts are designed in the
    states an manu-ed in taiwan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Of course, I won't bother touching the fact that a Michelin stared chef wouldn't even make a hamburger in the first place, that it's cordon bleu not blue, and that at a top end restaurant, you don't 'get what you ask for', you get what you're given. I also won't touch the fact that many a designer and fabricator in a production or even semi production environment sure as hell does give a **** about the quality of their work. Even Sachs himself has professed that the quality of production bikes has gone through the roof in the past 20 years, and if you don't agree maybe you should go into the LBS and check out a Time VRS or a Specialized Epic.
    "...the quality of production bikes has gone through the roof in the past 20 years."
    Richard Sachs
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Now dear reader, in the efforts to balance things out (because if I don't, who will?), here are some links to modern builders doing some work that IMHO eclipses that of the established ones. They'll probably not get much publicity on frameforum, although I could be wrong because, well, I don't go there. I don't own any shares in any of their companies, none of them spend advertising dollars with me, I have no reason to increase traffic to their websites short of the fact that I think what some of these guys are doing is unprecendented.
    (links omitted to save bandwidth)

    here's a list that i keep on my site:
    http://richardsachs.com/nextwave.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    I also have to mention two guys that aren't building anymore but I whish they were because their work is simply the best I've ever seen - namely Don Ferris of Anvil, and Brian Caulfield of Kavik Bicycles (Who I suspect is the designer of the new Felt FS platform.)
    dwf is my hero and i would have his son if i could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Okay, se there ya go. I feel very calm and Karmic now that balance has been restored to the Force.

    Breakfast I will finish now, Coffee I will drink....hrm....yes......
    man i hate it when warwick wakes up unhappy.
    e-RICHIE©™®

  7. #7
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    Edited by Moderators

    On top of that Neil, this cross-posting to increase traffic to your own website
    OK, click the back button to the home page. How many people in this section; 1 maybe? 2 perhaps, 3 at tops. Now, go across to frameforum. Look in the box giving current visitors. At any time the number of visitors at frameforum outnumbers the numbers here viewing this this section by at least 30:1. By being here I've probably doubled the number of viewers to this section! Who's increasing traffic where?

    As for burgers and the rest, if you are a indeed that McBurger kind of guy, you'll go in, look up at the pictures above the checkout and point to what you want. That's what you'll get - or a loose approximation of what appears in the photo. Or on the other hand, if you happen to be in an upmarket resturant and look through the menu and you don't see what you want, you order off-menu and, invariably get what you want. That's the difference. C-H-O-I-C-E. That's the point I was trying to make. But hey, thanks all the same for going over my essay and checking my spelling - much appreciated.

    BTW, were any of the list of framebuilders you named at anytime building frames for you? Edited by Moderators
    Now, can we get back on topic....
    Last edited by neilwheel; 03-20-07 at 06:19 AM.

  8. #8
    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    Edited by Moderators

    Richo, yeah, the Internet cross-posting is a contact sport. Here's my left hook reply above. Kudos for your statement "all of my cast parts are designed in the states an manu-ed in taiwan." We all know they are, and it's meaningless, which was the point to my comment (not that you'd be able to read it because, well, Neil deleted it) just before I was 'banned' from frameforum.

    You are correct - I should contact the writer of the article if I have an issue with the article, but there are larger issues here. That article was a wanky fluff-piece and you know it.
    Last edited by Thylacine; 04-01-07 at 10:13 PM.
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

  9. #9
    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    Not that it's anyone's business, but in the interests of transparency, here's Thylacines relationship to the builder's I mentioned. Most of them are plainly mentioned simply because they are good, and as a guy who employs 3-4 framebuilders at any one time, I'm guessing my opinion has a modicum of relevance.

    Dave Bohm - Bohemian Bicycles : Dave is one of the few I look up to in the industry. I consider him a friend and he recently asked us to redesign his logo for him, which we did. For free.
    Sacha White - Vanilla Bicycles : Swapped e-mails and called him a couple of times. Mentioned mostly because I was so impressed with his 'cross bike at the show.
    Geoff Jones - Jones Bikes : No connection. Mentioned because, well, look at his bikes.
    Steve Stickel - ByStickel Bicycles : Kindred spirit ex-ID guy. Consider him a friend. Hasn't built for us. mentioned because his attention to detail is amazing, and his bikes unique. He deserves more.
    Chris Zanotti - Mint Cycles : Chris has built one frame for us so far. I mention him because he has more of the boxes ticked than the majority of contractors we've ever used. He deserves more custom for that alone.
    Jim Kish - Kish Bicycles : Jim used to build for us. Nice workmanship, but he's too busy with his other jobs to give us his full attention. Mentioned simply because of his quality workmanship.
    Nick Crumpton - Crumpton Cycles : Swapped a few e-mails with Nick. Vanguard of new technology. Maybe even the modern day Richo?
    Kent Eriksen - Eriksen Cycles : Never spoken or e-mailled him. His genius is combining his production skills with everything else.
    Don Ferris - Anvil : Swapped e-mails with him a few times when he was building. Another one of the few guys I look up to.
    Brian Caulfield - Kavik Bicycles : Did some welding on the first Thylacine. He's not even making frames anymore from what I can tell, but the quality of his welds are like nothing on Earth. I have no reason to mention him other than the fact that he's a genius with the torch.

    So there ya go.
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

  10. #10
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
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    OK. I cleaned this thread up a bit. A couple of points:

    1st, do NOT take up old grudges from other Forums to continue fighting in public here. You have issues you need to discuss, do it in PM.

    2nd, the letter "P" in PM really means that around here. Publishing private messages without other party's consent will get you warned, temp banned or perm banned, probably in that order. Please don't do that.

    Thank you.

    --Juha, a Forum Mod
    To err is human. To moo is bovine.

    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


    Become a Registered Member in Bike Forums
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  11. #11
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    man if this is what's left of a post after it's edited...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Edited by Moderators

    Richo, yeah, the Internet cross-posting is a contact sport. Here's my left hook reply above. Kudos for your statement "all of my cast parts are designed in the states an manu-ed in taiwan." We all know they are, and it's meaningless, which was the point to my comment (not that you'd be able to read it because, well, Neil deleted it) just before I was 'banned' from frameforum.

    You are correct - I should contact the writer of the article if I have an issue with the article, but there are larger issues here. That article was a wanky fluff-piece and you know it.
    i thought the piece was good, actually i thought it was great.
    and it has nothing to do with my inclusion. if anyone wants
    to read it, click here.

    warwick, why was it a wanky fluff-piece?

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