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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 05-12-07, 05:53 PM   #1
Nocturnus
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Lugged frame limits..

I've been kicking the idea of building a lugged frame bike for myself. Been reading and checked out the Little Fish site along with that other frame building forum (been 3-4 weeks since I registered, and no email yet). My question is, i'm a big guy (270# right now), are there any limits on lugged frames? This frame would basicly be a commuter type thing.
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Old 05-12-07, 07:35 PM   #2
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The lugged joint is plenty strong, you just want to choose a tubing with a wall thickness to suit your weight. The only other restriction with lugs is that the frame geometry can only be tweaked so far, so if you're a very odd-sized human then it might be tough or impossible to use lugs..

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Old 05-12-07, 07:42 PM   #3
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You'll be fine!

Stay away from the super light stuff -- and not just because your bigger, but because its more forgiving of the torch.

I started with a Dedachiai Zerotre set from Joe Bringheli. I picked up my dropouts from Henry James. He had some nice True Temper cromo tubes in various buttings. I bought my lugs from Nova, and they had tubing too.

All three were great too deal with.
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Old 05-12-07, 09:27 PM   #4
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Cool. I was looking at some stuff from Nova Cycles. I was looking at their steel tubset (http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/pr...oducts_id=1157)
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Old 05-12-07, 09:40 PM   #5
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there are truly frames that won't do. Lugged frames are no exception.Frame material plays a major part as well. I got yammered off the Clydesdale forum for speaking my mind already from a couple of 300 pounders but so what. 753 for example is not acceptable for heavy riders, over 200 lbs so I've been told by :Bilenky, Sachs, Bob Jackson and others. Deda makes tubing that's the big NO-GO for 180 + EOM 16.5 is one example. 753 is no longer, that Deda and others still are used. Reynolds 853 is stiff "good" for large riders, probably fine but reynolds by the way,classifies rider over 175 as "large". I weigh 230-240, I'm too heavy,I make no bones about it. Some frames I ought not to ride. I can't ride my cousin's Arabian mare either, it's a Morgan or Hack horse for me. I accept the laws of physics and logic that prevails.
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Old 05-13-07, 04:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old and new
there are truly frames that won't do. Lugged frames are no exception.Frame material plays a major part as well. I got yammered off the Clydesdale forum for speaking my mind already from a couple of 300 pounders but so what. 753 for example is not acceptable for heavy riders, over 200 lbs so I've been told by :Bilenky, Sachs, Bob Jackson and others. Deda makes tubing that's the big NO-GO for 180 + EOM 16.5 is one example. 753 is no longer, that Deda and others still are used. Reynolds 853 is stiff "good" for large riders, probably fine but reynolds by the way,classifies rider over 175 as "large". I weigh 230-240, I'm too heavy,I make no bones about it. Some frames I ought not to ride. I can't ride my cousin's Arabian mare either, it's a Morgan or Hack horse for me. I accept the laws of physics and logic that prevails.
I'm riding a Waterford 1200 in 753. I'm glad that I weigh 150 lbs. Seriously, where did you come up with those weight limitations. My 230 lb brother is looking for a new frame. Does aluminum have the same restrictions?

Tim
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Old 05-13-07, 06:17 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by old and new
there are truly frames that won't do. Lugged frames are no exception.Frame material plays a major part as well. I got yammered off the Clydesdale forum for speaking my mind already from a couple of 300 pounders but so what. 753 for example is not acceptable for heavy riders, over 200 lbs so I've been told by :Bilenky, Sachs, Bob Jackson and others. Deda makes tubing that's the big NO-GO for 180 + EOM 16.5 is one example. 753 is no longer, that Deda and others still are used. Reynolds 853 is stiff "good" for large riders, probably fine but reynolds by the way,classifies rider over 175 as "large". I weigh 230-240, I'm too heavy,I make no bones about it. Some frames I ought not to ride. I can't ride my cousin's Arabian mare either, it's a Morgan or Hack horse for me. I accept the laws of physics and logic that prevails.
one data point -
i've never been on a clydesdale forum nor posted about this thread's issue.
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Old 05-13-07, 07:14 AM   #8
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That's a good tubeset, but there aren't any lugs that will work with it unless you want to switch some of the tubes out. I don't think if they will subsitute tubes for those particular sets.
Nova does have a lot of good stufff in that price range that will work better with available mtb lugs.
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Old 05-13-07, 10:58 AM   #9
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There are three common lug set sizes for road bikes:

Standard - 1" top tube, 1-1/8" seat and down tubes, 1-1/4" head tube (for 1" steerer), 22.2mm (7/8") chain stay, and 14mm seat stays

Oversize (OS) - 1-1/8" top and seat tubes, 1-1/4" down tube, 1-1/4" head tube, either 22.2m round or 16x30mm oval chain stays, and 14-16mm seat stays

Super OS (slant 6 or Long Shin) - 1-1/4" top and seat tubes, 1-3/8" down tube, 36mm head tube (for 1-1/8" steerer tube), 16x30 chain stays, 16-17mm seat stays

The super OS tube sizes are good for the super big boys, although the lugs and tubes are fairly expensive thus there are better choices for first timers.

I recommend using regular OS sizes with heavy duty tubes - long butts and thick tubes. Something in the .9/.6 range should do the trick for the main tubes, .8-.9mm chain stays, 16mm by .7+mm seat stays. Brand and alloy type is not important contrary to what many people think - the tube manufacturers will pick an appropriate alloy to go with the tube gauge thickness.

If you do more digging there are OS tube size lugs that mate with a larger 36mm head tube if you want to try a 1-1/8" fork. Nova and Ceeway have some of these or can get them.

Good luck.
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Old 05-13-07, 11:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cs1
I'm riding a Waterford 1200 in 753. I'm glad that I weigh 150 lbs. Seriously, where did you come up with those weight limitations. My 230 lb brother is looking for a new frame. Does aluminum have the same restrictions?

Tim
ACUALLY from builders I spoke to, frame tubing manufactures and tube-set suppliers as well. I'm not a builder just a 200 pound plus man, who's weighed 300 and some in the past. I need to weigh-in on these matters. It seems some individuals (not you) have a 'tude concerning anyone suggesting that a 300 pounder is limited, oh well too bad,that's how it is. 753 is no longer readily available. Some Deda though,is in fact not recomended AT ALL for riders NEAR 200 ponds. I ain't sayin' they'd crush the bike and get hurt, I'm simply saying : a heavy man ought to consider his weight,be realistic and also consider that road bikes, the sport of road/race cycling is more centered around 180 pound riders or less. How do you think your bike would "feel" as a 150 lb.rider if you carried an extra 100 to 150 ponds,the frame wouldn't yield ?
As usual ,I'll say this ,I don't believe that I'm being radical. The OPs were "experts Iguess, they appeared as such, I thought I'd weigh-in,it's all about that here. It invites comments,we all can show individuals less experienced realistic points of view as opposed to flights of fancy. LESS RESTRICTIONS on ALUM.
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Old 05-03-11, 10:07 PM   #11
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Digging up my old thread because I'm really starting to look at this. Been digging around Nova's site, even sent them a email with some questions, but didn't get a reply back. I'll prob make a pick list and post it here, just to make sure i'm not totally off on something.
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Old 05-04-11, 03:41 AM   #12
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I just built my first frame and I'm a pretty big guy (6'2", 230). I used Nova's OS tubes (.9/.6/.9) and their stamped lugs (and MAPP gas). I wanted to try to keep the entry costs reasonable and I don't really notice a couple of extra pounds in the frame. The bike rides great so far.

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Old 05-04-11, 06:31 PM   #13
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I like you have been kicking around the idea of building a frame, for a year now. I dont know about weight problems but good old fashion CROMO is great, like someone else remarked just don't buy the thin stuff, get the thick stuff. I have a small Mapp/O2 torch and three propane torches for plumbing. Do you have the book by Marc-Andre R. Chimonas, his videos have been pulled from you-tube. His videos are better then the book which is probably why he pulled them. Do you have welding, soldering, or brazing experience. I have arc welding experience for car fabrication, soldering for plumbing, and brazing for body work. I don't feel a bike project is to far out of reach.
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Old 05-11-11, 12:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by guywithchickens View Post
I just built my first frame and I'm a pretty big guy (6'2", 230). I used Nova's OS tubes (.9/.6/.9) and their stamped lugs (and MAPP gas). I wanted to try to keep the entry costs reasonable and I don't really notice a couple of extra pounds in the frame. The bike rides great so far.
Quick question about the MAPP gas, did you use Mapp and oxy or just plain mapp? If just plain mapp how many canisters did you burn through for the frame?

Thanks
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Old 05-11-11, 03:17 AM   #15
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Quick question about the MAPP gas, did you use Mapp and oxy or just plain mapp? If just plain mapp how many canisters did you burn through for the frame?

Thanks
I used MAPP/air and used less than one canister for the whole frame & fork. For the bigger bits (BB, fork crown), I also used a propane torch (my plumbing tool) to help heat up the part. It takes a bit of patience and you have to focus on gradually getting the whole part up to the proper temp. I'm sure this would be much easier with O/A, but I couldn't swing that for my first frame.

Here's the torch I used: http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/...3/Default.aspx
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Old 05-11-11, 07:25 AM   #16
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My old master builder before retiring and knowing he was going to retire he did his last 2 or 3 frames and repairs using regular propane gas with oxygen, as for the torch the only thing he told me was that he used a bigger tip and with ox/acet. But never told me the size of the tip or any other detail. As for the brazing material he said he used bronce with like 25% of silver or 15%, cant remember.

Thanks for the tips GUY, I always wanted to know exactly the torchs to use, beside i'm scare to hell of gas and fire hehehe

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Old 05-11-11, 09:03 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by old and new View Post
there are truly frames that won't do. Lugged frames are no exception.Frame material plays a major part as well. I got yammered off the Clydesdale forum for speaking my mind already from a couple of 300 pounders but so what. 753 for example is not acceptable for heavy riders, over 200 lbs so I've been told by :Bilenky, Sachs, Bob Jackson and others. Deda makes tubing that's the big NO-GO for 180 + EOM 16.5 is one example. 753 is no longer, that Deda and others still are used. Reynolds 853 is stiff "good" for large riders, probably fine but reynolds by the way,classifies rider over 175 as "large". I weigh 230-240, I'm too heavy,I make no bones about it. Some frames I ought not to ride. I can't ride my cousin's Arabian mare either, it's a Morgan or Hack horse for me. I accept the laws of physics and logic that prevails.
I understand the physics of what stresses metals, but I think it takes a quantitative evaluation of stress and strain with a good understanding of necessary safety factors to make such statements so unequivocally. Some concrete examples of failures would be nice, too. Another important part of the argument would have to be explaining why many 531 frames from the '70s, such as several Raleigh Pros owned by a 230# strong friend of mine, have not broken.

If it's true that this much weight must break any 531 frame, and several 531 frames don't break when owned by big guys, something we thought was true just isn't true, correct? Maybe it's not true that these frame materials can't handle bigger riders. Maybe it's an example of frame tubing companies covering their a$$es.
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Old 05-11-11, 09:11 PM   #18
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I always thought that there must be some ass-covering going on. I rode a rusty Columbus SL frame for years and can't find any cracks. OTOH, I don't think it's an easy stress analysis to do. I guess the experimentalist in me says that to really figure out how much a tubeset can take, you'd have to put a frame made from it on a test stand and let 'er rip.
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Old 05-11-11, 11:08 PM   #19
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i'd want to start with how much can each tube take, in tension, bending, and torsion. Then test the lugs assembled on the tube - can you break a joint? But it takes a lot of equipment to test to failure.
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Old 05-12-11, 06:18 PM   #20
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I used MAPP/air and used less than one canister for the whole frame & fork. For the bigger bits (BB, fork crown), I also used a propane torch (my plumbing tool) to help heat up the part. It takes a bit of patience and you have to focus on gradually getting the whole part up to the proper temp. I'm sure this would be much easier with O/A, but I couldn't swing that for my first frame.

Here's the torch I used: http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/...3/Default.aspx
Its quite interesting that in Australia a MAPP torch is pretty much more expensive than getting a second hand oxy/propane torch. I think I'll just go the oxy propane and know I don't need to worry about not getting enough heat to the larger parts.

Thanks
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Old 05-14-11, 11:12 AM   #21
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Nocturnus, if you haven't yet been to the Henry James website, they have a helpful sheet of suggestions for beginning builders WRT tubing selection. Go to the PDF price list and scroll to the bottom, IIRC. It's conservative, but keeps you out of "broken frame" territory.
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Old 05-22-11, 08:06 PM   #22
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I have seen tests
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Old 05-22-11, 08:07 PM   #23
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newer stuff is better
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Old 05-22-11, 08:08 PM   #24
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eos16.5 is not for heavy riders?
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Old 06-04-11, 03:58 PM   #25
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I have seen tests
Please share.
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