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  1. #1
    n0oBie thedips's Avatar
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    PAINING TIPS... colorsanding....

    hey guys not sure if this is the right place. i have experience with colorsanding on clear coats... finishing jobs.. but what if i want to go with a matte paint job..

    i want to paint my frame black and im sure there will be tons of orange peel... do i proceed to colorsand in the same fashion if it were clear on top? someone told me to get 2000 grit and go lightly without any water.

    any tips and help from pros would be welcome! thank you
    LOOK / BMC / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / COLNAGO

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    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    What are you starting with? Regular gloss paint?

    If you want satin, why not start with satin paint?

    You can always sand the final coat to flatten the surface; Scotchbrite works well. Bikes are not easy to sand though and it's easy to cut through the finish on the corners, particularly if you are using lugs. Using water helps keep the paper from loading up and is generally recommended.

    Good luck.
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  3. #3
    n0oBie thedips's Avatar
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    replly sorry i wasnt too clear in my 1st post... i am using a satin paint.. my concern was that by going matte and having little to no gloss in it makes the paint harder to sand? more abrasive ? or it doesnt make a difference at all...


    i will just keep my 2000 grit wet... just checked on my work not a ton of orange peel.. i will sand it down paint another 2 coats let it cure then finish that...

    thanks
    LOOK / BMC / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / COLNAGO

  4. #4
    Senior Member mtbikerinpa's Avatar
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    There are flat clearcoats and satin clearcoats which you can buy (automotive products) which will produce satisfactory results. Martin-Senour is the most user friendly that I have used. I work in Automotive refinishing and have been restoring and repainting bikes for years. The orange peel will be most easily prevented by using the propper rating reducer made for the paint product, and heating the frame to the ideal application temperature(70-80 degrees).
    To prep, however before the color, sand the primer with 600 grit and scotch brite to thoroughly smooth the primer(sounds paranoid, but in my shop if it doesnt get this treatment it gets rejected by QC.). Spray 2 coats of the color according to the manufacturer instructions(there are set times between coats according to product and temperature) and judge the results. If the color looks decently smooth, procede to the clearcoat without sanding.

    That is the most effective way, of course there are cheaper options in single-stage or spraycans.
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  5. #5
    "this is not suck" j0e_bik3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedips View Post
    hey guys not sure if this is the right place. i have experience with colorsanding on clear coats... finishing jobs.. but what if i want to go with a matte paint job..

    i want to paint my frame black and im sure there will be tons of orange peel... do i proceed to colorsand in the same fashion if it were clear on top? someone told me to get 2000 grit and go lightly without any water.

    any tips and help from pros would be welcome! thank you
    the way I was taught was "practice on a piece of something (steel pipe is GREAT for frames) till you can shoot it with NO ORANGE PEEL", then you don't need to color sand (which you really can't on a matte finish)

    matte finishes are shot differently than gloss clearcoats, it's more of a gradual build-up, instead of trying to shoot full wet coats, I typically shoot 7 to 10 mist coats when shooting matte finishes, where as with a typical clearcoat, usually your done after two full wet coats.

    seriously, you really cannot sand a matte finish without topcoating it again, and if you shoot with peel, you'll be doing the sanding/shooting forever.

    if you have peel, your *** isn't matched to your compressor (*** uses 18cfm and compressor is rated at 7cfm VERY COMMON!), or it's not adjusted right*, AND your trying to apply too much paint at once.
    also try using a DETAIL *** for shooting matte finishes or frames, as the 3" fan pattern makes getting the tubes even a snap, and with a detail *** you will be forced to shoot more coats as it wont put out anywhere near the paint volume of a standard paint *** (and you SHOULD be using at least a HVLP, with the newer LVLP guns being my first choice)


    PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE


    (* runs are a FLUID adjustment (you need less), and peel is an AIR adjustment (you need more)
    Last edited by j0e_bik3; 02-18-08 at 05:49 AM.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member mtbikerinpa's Avatar
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    well said.
    Aviation Mechanic, Bike racer, Fitness Equipment Restorer

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  7. #7
    n0oBie thedips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0e_bik3 View Post
    the way I was taught was "practice on a piece of something (steel pipe is GREAT for frames) till you can shoot it with NO ORANGE PEEL", then you don't need to color sand (which you really can't on a matte finish)

    matte finishes are shot differently than gloss clearcoats, it's more of a gradual build-up, instead of trying to shoot full wet coats, I typically shoot 7 to 10 mist coats when shooting matte finishes, where as with a typical clearcoat, usually your done after two full wet coats.

    seriously, you really cannot sand a matte finish without topcoating it again, and if you shoot with peel, you'll be doing the sanding/shooting forever.

    if you have peel, your *** isn't matched to your compressor (*** uses 18cfm and compressor is rated at 7cfm VERY COMMON!), or it's not adjusted right*, AND your trying to apply too much paint at once.
    also try using a DETAIL *** for shooting matte finishes or frames, as the 3" fan pattern makes getting the tubes even a snap, and with a detail *** you will be forced to shoot more coats as it wont put out anywhere near the paint volume of a standard paint *** (and you SHOULD be using at least a HVLP, with the newer LVLP guns being my first choice)


    PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE


    (* runs are a FLUID adjustment (you need less), and peel is an AIR adjustment (you need more)
    AWESOME awesome advice!! thank you.. ok so i went with SATIN BLACK instead of full matte..... i shot many light coats.. .which in the end i was very very pleased with... i went with about 8 coats of satin black with about a few minutes between each coat...



    now... im planning on doing another frame in 2 main colors (COLOR A AND COLOR B) and going with gloss and i want to get it as shiny as possible.. any tips for shooting pearls and metallics so that they are really brilliant in shine?

    steps im planning...
    gonna go with chemical strip to get the frame bare... then use sandable primer to really make things smooth.. prolly do like 2 coats... polish out the lugs.. mask them off... spray the downtube and headtube one color a high gloss (COLOR A) then let that dry out mask that off.. then start painting the rest of the bike a high gloss COLOR B.... then spray clear? or do i check that work for peel and imperfections correct it.. then spray clear over the whole bike.....or do i spray the clear as soon as i finish with one color.... any steps or help with my procedure will be greatly appreciated!

    thanks in advance1
    LOOK / BMC / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / COLNAGO

  8. #8
    "this is not suck" j0e_bik3's Avatar
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    there was a thread recently, and it has everything you'll need to get started:
    (post #15)
    http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php...t=#post6063103

    you STILL need to shoot a practice panel, and I would advise doing a white gloss color FIRST (test panel or whatever) THEN try the metallic,.....getting metallics even is HARD, you'll see, it'll take lots of extra prep, and working the surface down to 400, or even 600 so you don't see sanding scratches in the metallic.

    welcome to sanding,..err, painting!
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  9. #9
    Senior Member mtbikerinpa's Avatar
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    In our shop 600 grit is sometimes too coarse for sand scratches. To be really sure, follow it up with scotch brite before painting.
    Aviation Mechanic, Bike racer, Fitness Equipment Restorer

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  10. #10
    "this is not suck" j0e_bik3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbikerinpa View Post
    In our shop 600 grit is sometimes too coarse for sand scratches. To be really sure, follow it up with scotch brite before painting.
    here's an experiment for you (your boss will either hate you or love you)

    block the high build with 320(dry), then blow on 2 light coats of epoxy sealer, and let cure over night, next day shoot the metallic, and then the clear.

    bet you can't find a single sanding scratch,...check it out

    and remember the finest grit you used before shooting was 320, not 600 or 800 or scotchbrite.

    this is why the new epoxy sealers are such a godsend, because they can be topcoated with no further sanding needed, and they fill, and flatten 240/320 sanding scratches leaving a beautiful surface to lay a metallic on.


    sand em if you want to, but I'll shoot em like this, and no one can tell the difference,.......except I'll finish three days before you!
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  11. #11
    Dr.Deltron
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0e_bik3 View Post
    this is why the new epoxy sealers are such a godsend, because they can be topcoated with no further sanding needed,
    What brand & code numbers please? PPG DPLF40 etc...

  12. #12
    "this is not suck" j0e_bik3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Deltron View Post
    What brand & code numbers please? PPG DPLF40 etc...
    I REALLY like this guys stuff:
    http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm
    (yes, it's me doc , so you already know the particulars)

    but PPG's "OMNI" MP170 is REALLY good even for an "economy" line, I actually like it BETTER than their supposedly higher quality DPLF series with the only drawbacks being with MP170 you are limited to buff, grey, or black (DPLF has about 5 or 6 shades), and you have less "working window" (3 days for MP with probably 5 for the DPLF) but I don't really see that as a drawback, as I can't think of where I'd need a green or purple primer, and I don't wait 4 days after sealing something to topcoat it (unless it's a resto, where you're nit picking for months) I use buff for reds and yellows, grey for metallics, and black for, of course, black, so the MP170 is what I use, when I forget to order southern poly's stuff.

    I'll have to behave better this time I guess

    peace, love and isocyanates
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0e_bik3 View Post
    this is why the new epoxy sealers are such a godsend, because they can be topcoated with no further sanding needed, and they fill, and flatten 240/320 sanding scratches leaving a beautiful surface to lay a metallic on.


    sand em if you want to, but I'll shoot em like this, and no one can tell the difference,.......except I'll finish three days before you!
    Omni fills scratches?? I'm confused, because I use the White Omni (MP171) (if you wanna call it white), and it doesn't fill much of anything, but I have yet to shoot it over high-build and the like. I use it right over treated aluminum or steel.
    I know with DP you can add in DT reducers to make a sealer-can the same be done with the Omni products? I'd love for it to be true, because DP isn't getting any cheaper.

  14. #14
    "this is not suck" j0e_bik3's Avatar
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    DP IS a sealer, and the P sheet I have says mix it 2:1:1 for final non sanding sealer(DP-hardener-DT reducer), or for DTM sealing, I never use DP as a primer, that is one I intend to sand before topcoating, as if you've tried, the DP sands like bubblegum even days after shooting.

    the DP is just WAY overpriced,....try the OMNI MP series as a final non sanding sealer (again 2:1:1), and the TRICK is to remember this:
    solid colors= block the high build with 240 dry, and then shoot 2 light coats of mp170, (I wait overnight before shooting the base, but in a shop 20 minutes @ 70 degrees will do it, DON'T OVERCOAT!!) then shoot the base and shoot the clear the following day,...you will see some scratches in the basecoat, but they will vanish once the clear is applied, and because of the rather coarse texture, you get CRAZY adhesion with the clear.
    Metallics= block the high build with 320 or 400 dry, and then shoot 2 good wet coats of the MP, then base, and then clearcoat the following day, you wont see a scratch anywhere, PROVIDED you use a good medium to high solids metallic with decent hiding (most economy metallics like OMNI are NOT good hiders) I tend to use DIAMONT metallics because of their amazing hiding qualities.

    I'm not saying ALL OMNI products are wonderful,...but the MP170 and the other MP colors work as I have described and have for over 100 paint jobs now, and I think from experience with both, I like the MP better, as it does basically the same thing, and shoots the same way, but is about $90 a gallon w/ hardener, where the DP is almost $300, not including reducer. (I use transstar reducers to save money= no problems whatsoever with PPG products)

    check it out, you will be as surprised as I was when I was first shown the "trick" (cheat)
    Last edited by j0e_bik3; 02-24-08 at 06:38 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Thanks for the tips. I agree that DP is rather overpriced, and completely agree that some of the Omni color DO NOT cover very well at all!! But that's because in your average quart of MBC, you've got about 10 ounces of tint to about 22 ounces of binder!

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