veganboyjosh

i posted this in the alt bike forum, since i'm more interested in building crazy freakbikes than super swanky road bikes, but someone suggested i post it here, too, since a lot of you have more specific welding experience.

thanks for any advice you might have...

so, i've been interested in altbikes for as long as i can remember.

i've never learned how to weld.

of course, being around and on alt-bikes has filled my head with lots of ideas for designs, and projects i'd love to try out. some i know will probably not work, but in building them, i may come up with something good.

i want to learn to weld. the options for taking a class around me are not that great.

i've checked out some books, and read what i can on the net, etc.

can/should i just get a mig welder, and figure it out? i know from reading about the dangers of electrocution, and fumes...i'd be super careful, since i'd be figuring it out on my own...

i've got access to tons of scrap metal bike parts, and old **** bikes to cut up and build with.

what do you think? what advice do any of you who can weld have for me? things you learned the hard way that you'd do differently?

thanks.

josh.

taken67

I learned how to mig and gas weld in high school, and it was pretty much "here's the on switch, here's the trigger, go nuts". It's a wonder no one blew anything up. Alot of my friends who build freak bikes are self taught, their welds are ugly as ****e, but the seem to hold.

It really helps to have someone who knows what they're doing to watch over your shoulder and tell you what's right and what's wrong. Be creative, post a craigslist add for welding instruction to be paid for in beer, go down to an auto repair shop and see if someone will give you a lesson for 100 bucks. You don't need to know how to TIG weld a perfect stack of dimes to make a tall bike. Have fun and be smart.

Torchy McFlux

I was lucky and learned how to braze on the job. Tried TIG welding, but never got enough practice to get the hang of it.
I've been considering taking part-time classes at a technical college to get some proper training. That's the route I would go if I were you.

DOG

I am have had a few 1 hour demos and that was enough to get me going with TIG and MIG + "gas welding which I have not done in a long time". I think for a person with reasonable mechanical abilities, reading comprehension and quality equipment "welding equipment + welding text book" it is not too difficult to learn. Just remember that fitting is 70% to 90% of the job for a good weld but that will be in your text book. To me TIG is the easiest process once you get a handle on the correct settings/tungstens/rod from there it is a matter of the dance of heat and dip of the rod and finding a comfortable position to get the best control of that process.

mike L.

Hit the nursing home. I wish my grandfather was still alive. He used to build submarines. But seriously, I bet there are a lot of old guys out there who would love to pass on the trade they spent their life learning.

Six jours

Taking a class will shorten your learning curve. If you aren't completely brainless, however, you can safely learn with a book and a lot of screwing up.

NoReg

I taught myself to weld, you can do it. There are problems, mostly that people in our situation don't go out and buy a really good machine and good helmet, and weld in the best situation. So we are trying to teach ourselves to do something that is difficult, and using lessor equipment to do it. If you had a dynasty 200 and the right settings you would have some difficulty learning to weld, but a whole lot less than with a scratch outfit, etc...

MIG isn't the right choice for bike work. You probably know that. I started out with stick. MIG is basically a production welding set up. It feeds the filler for you so you can cover a lot of stuff without the cost or time of something like TIG. Good system but back of the pack for thin wall chromo tubing. I'm sure it can be done, but then you have three problems not just the two mentioned above: teach self; use wrong process; use gear of lessor quality (assumes you are) If you happen to think MIG is the right way to go, then you need to do a lot more reading. If you read more you will read about TIG and gas welding, If you read a lot more you will realize pretty much everything works for everything in the right hands.

Possibly the best system for a bike builder is aircraft gas welding. The reason is that it is the only system you can get everything for for 500-1000, or if you are super lucky, a lot less on ebay etc... And that is the very best of everything, not entry level stuff. Works for all known methods of bike asssembly, be they lugs, fillet, welding, or freestyle. You need most of this gear anyway to do serious bike work since it requires gas for some details even if you weld. You can get by without gas, but it will limit your work a little. The EAA has chapters all over america. Check if ther is one near you. These guys may be able to get you up to speed with gas or arc welding in a chromo context (aircraft). The only limitation to gas welding is it never looks like pulsed TIG on the final product, and may not be customer friendly, but if you are just interested in doing the best work, it's a different mater.

Don't overlook the videos out there. You can find welding videos at smartflix.com

While I completely agree hands on tutoring is best, keep in mind that most of it probably won't relate to bike type welding anyway.

DOG

I got my initial welding workshop at a welding citification training school / fabrication shop. A place like the one I went to works with individual students for basic structural welding up to nuclear reactor piping and aircraft space frame. If you can fine a place like this one they will train you to do a specific task that you wish to learn and on your specific materials. This is something you could find through the local welding suppliers "how i found my place". Tech school classes are great but you will have to spend many hours on tasks that will be far from your intended uses. But if you will be doing gas welding + brazing the bonus is that it is most likely the first things they will teach you. Also the skills from gas welding will help when you move to TIG. As far as welding machines I would buy the best you can afford, tig is going to be best for bike frames, the Miller Dynasty 200 DX would be the dream machine for your purpose if money is not an issue. For light use a quality welding machine will most likely last a life time.

As Peterpan1 has said the Gas system will do everything you need for frames and more.

DOG

One last big one.

Practice on scrap first!!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!Practice on scrap first!!!!

ok 2

Fitting is key welding is not gap filling! a poorly fit joint will be weak and hard to weld

cujet

You might have trouble finding a class that teaches precision welding. Aircraft welding is along the lines of what you want to learn. Both TIG and Oxy-Acet (gas torch) welding are good choices for bicycle frames.

Mig and stick welding are not likely to be anywhere near precise enough for the work you want to do.

As a certified welder, I suggest taking a TIG or torch welding class. The torch skills translate well to TIG. You will avoid many mistakes with instruction.

I also suggest you purchase a 220 Volt powered welder. 110 volt equipment is nearly always substandard. It also has limited power, which means thicker materials are impossible to do a good job on. (not enough power for penetration).

If you are anywhere near Florida, I would be willing to give a few lessons.

Chris

X-LinkedRider

You don't have to take a class but learn from somebody. There is knowledge you can only be taught by somebody that actually does it.

NoReg

"Fitting is key welding is not gap filling! a poorly fit joint will be weak and hard to weld"

I would echo that myself, if it was up to me, largely. However, the oxy aircraft tubing guys are an eye-opener. They cut the copes with weiss snip sheet metal shears; they don't worry about 1/16" gaps; and they don't bother grinding back the points on the birdsmouth, just fusion weld them into the puddle. Totally different dynamic. I saw this stuff on the TM Tech video on welding 4130. The guys in the video are all certified for the EAA, and follow in the tradition of guys who have been aircraft welding since the 40s, and were still active at the time they did the tape a few years back.

Another guy I know does his frame welding with 3/32" stick at all times, and he is a gifted welder.

This all comes under the catagory of stuff you don't see at NABS. If you are going to grind your own gullet you might as well find what else works since you aren't following the regular path anyway.

One cheap way to pracatice is to get some sheet metal about the same size as the tubing you expect to weld, like .035", whatever gage that is, or even a size smaller. First just practice butt welds. When you work that out. Try forming the sheet into u shapes and use snips to fit another U into the first. Weld these together. Then practice on some scrap tube.

Technically 110 welders should have the power to weld just about anything you need to weld on a bike, but it is rarely the case that they will have the correct format. With my Maxstar I weld bike stuff with it plugged into the 110 outlet at times. At that level it won't have the power for the high settings some prefer for pulsing the tig. If you use a more or less constant amps and cool the puddle by moving the torch and dabbing the wire, then you can get away with it. Something like a 50 amp setting will weld 50 thou, in theory, at constant heat. That's doable at 110, but the welder in question in 1-2K depending on accessories.

I've been intensively studying techniques that would allow the average guy to build a frame with confidence, without dropping 10K in gear. That said I have also been improving the equipment in my shop since a Taiwan lathe let me down somewhat. I now have 5 mills and 5 metalworking lathes, and not room to install them. Sorta a project gone wild. At the end of this re-orginization, I expect be able to fit tubes within a thou or so, whether that is required or not. Custom frame workmanship is all about taking the specs to the max.

PaPa

Contrary to popular belief, learning to weld via solo DIY is both foolish and potentually dangerous. Many local colleges have non-credited classes which not only teach what jointing process is best suited for whatever you plan to build, but will guide you through the process in the least amount of time and pain. Also, many non-credited classes promote student selected project(s), so it's a premium way to learn the trade, and build your favorite toys at the same time. If you have a community college in your area, I'd strongly encourage you to call, or better yet, talk to the instructor in-person.

Six jours

There's one in every crowd. "You can't do it yourself! You need an expert! Call 9-1-1!"

Or something.

KrisPistofferson

Welding is one of those things like yoga or martial arts that are theoretically able to be learned just by buying a book, but having a teacher really, really helps. Take a class. I loved welding school. I couldn't find a welding job after I finished, but school was fun.

NoReg

"Contrary to popular belief, learning to weld via solo DIY is both foolish and potentually dangerous. "

First there is the electrical hazards. You can kill yourself, particularly given that some of the better economy options are DC, and DC has a reputation for being a widow maker. Never had a problem myself, but you need to be careful.

It's also somewhat possible to start fires you can't see through the helmet.

Having a spotter for both of these risks is a good idea.

There are hazards associated with the shield gas, even though it isn't flamable, in fact you can sometimes use it to snuff out fire on backer materials. Basically mishandling the bottles can be dangerous if htey suddenly decompress. There is also the possibility of asphixiation.

Fuel gasses are a whole other thing. Acet is like the movie: "A Million Ways to Die". Some of the dangers are unexpected like explosions if something is dropped on the hose causing detonation; There is the risk of explosion if the pressure is raised to high; flashback; etc...

There are various ways to burn yourself with the trode and the filler, like the time my rod was wiggly and I tried to reseat it by pushing it against my chest...

There are also dangers associated with not welding parts successfully. Normally this can be sorted out by careful research, understanding what you need to do; what the main problems are, like undercutting or blobs on thre surface without penetration; Contamination thorugh sloppy shielding. Then you need to do some testing to ensure your coupons are good.

Welding isn't the easiest subject to learn. reminds me a bit of golf in that one needs a good theoretical base, but also natural tallent. Neither brain nor physical skill by itself is enough.

Another thing to keep in mind is that learning TIG will require you to regrind a lot of electrodes as you ground them out on various un-intended surfaces. That gets tedius quick without some kind of power method.

Six jours

Note the smiley, and then lighten up, Francis.

DOG

I know a guy that had suffered asphyxiation due to a leaking cylinder of gas in his shop, he was saved as neighbors heard his body flopping around. He had just gotten to work and was opening up and just walked into the space which was depleted of oxygen due to the leak. Whenever I am near unused welding equipment I look to make sure that valves are shut.

NoReg

Dog, wow! Stuff that's in the manual but one doesn't expect to hear bad things about for real!

I was at the welding store the other day, and learned yet more ways to kill oneself using Acetalyne. That's sneaky stuff. Seems every time I am in the store there is a new horror story. Of course most people get through OK. Since I'm just a play at home type, I don't really weld that much, and only when the weather is good and I can have a flow of air in the shop, though that can be too much at times also.

oldgimp

1. Get a good, and I mean GOOD hood. There is nothing and I mean NOTHING more painful than burnt eyes !!!!!
Next, get a good pair of gloves. and don't wear jeans with frayed cuff's ( don't ask why)
2. Find a job as a welder's helper. You may only last a couple of weeks, but you will learn a bunch, and they
pay you, not the other way around.
3. Learn brazing and gas welding while you still can. It is becoming a lost art.

NoReg

"3. Learn brazing and gas welding while you still can. It is becoming a lost art."

These guys are keeping it alive: https://www.eaa.org/

Though even for home builders the lowering of the cost of TIG is making it the system of choice for new welders, from what I hear.

sstorkel

When I TIG welded my frame, I think I had the welder set on 50 or 55 amps and probably didn't use more that 40 or 45A. Any decent 110 volt TIG welder should be capable of this. Unless you're building a bike out of Schedule 40 pipe, I would think you could get by with a 110v welder. That said, I wouldn't buy one of those cheap Harbor Freight TIG welders...

And I would take a class. Having someone look over your shoulder and give advice makes it much easier to learn, in my experience.

NoReg

"I would think you could get by with a 110v welder. That said, I wouldn't buy one of those cheap Harbor Freight TIG welders... "

That is kinda the problem though. My Maxstar is sometimes plugged into a 110 outlet for just the reasons you suggest, but it is a 220/110 auto sellect welder. Where are the cheap, medium-full featured TIGs that aren't from HF and run 110 only? There is new stuff out there, more stuff in europe it seems. I didn't find it myself though.

Also, to expand the topic slightly, I think it would be a big compromise not to have the capability to weld thicker than 50 thou. There is the odd 50 thou part on bikes, and certainly once one learns to weld, all kinds of side projects come up, like jigs.

If a welder doesn't have a pedal or finger slide, lift arc or HF, it's not worth having and will give a beginer fits. I'd rather do stick than struggle with cheap TIG.

Gas welding is almost the anti TIG. It works like TIG with the heat and the filler being in separate hands, but almost everything that is a nuisance about TIG is not an issue with gas. Gas has it's problems safety wise, but if you can get comfy with those issues, then the rest is easy.

DOG

And never store gas in home or building connected to home, where you and or others live and sleep.

NoReg

That's why I'm using propane, everyone seems to have one of those in their yard. As far as non-fuel gases are concerned that's needed for all welding on bike tubes.