Exit.

What I seem to hear around is that most beginners apprentice themselves to an expert framebuilder, and learn the trade from them. Kind of like how the Japanese made swords.

Being able to make steel track and road frames would be absolutely incredible, and seems like a really sweet career. Is anyone familiar with any master framebuilders who might be looking for apprentices? Kind of a shot in the dark, I guess, but if not on the framebuilding section of the biggest bike forum in the world, then where?

Scooper

Frameforum.org

unterhausen

You can't become an apprentice. There are schools. Doug Fattic, UBI, and Dave Bohm are the ones that come easily to mind.

You can get the Paternek manual and DVDs, get a torch and some junk tubing, and go to town. Just don't watch videos on youtube.

Butterthebean

I think that ended back in the 70's.

NoReg

Folks don't generally want to apprentice which was a slow learning by watching while doing the joe jobs or worse deal. It took 7 years in many instance, while it takes seven days to learn to make a bike, if not get good at it. But an apprenticeship did deliver a career path in the old days which was the sole means of survival for many. Today people "apprentice" then leave with a piece of the place's reputation without hanging around long enough to actually pay back what it cost to learn the craft. It can take a few years before an employee is really starting to pay back their training costs, even in a relatively simple job. That is usually the point where they feel like they have paid their dues and are ready to move on. I know folks who have taken in apprentices and they rarely stick with it.

The apprentice system was tied in with the guilds and so forth, and with that there were a lot of secrets kept that were key to the profession. When I was interested in Japanese blacksmithing, in the 80s I couldn't find out what the clay formula was for their diff. heat treating. Now everyone on an internet forum has a workable formula. There aren't many secrets left any more.

Japanese swrdsmithing is a somewhat bad example, actually, because the craft was broken and lost continuity because of the ban on Japanese swords. The smiths went off into different similar activities like making tools or razors. But the continuity was lost, and in the west we have plenty of examples of that kind of thing. The cool thing in places like Japan are the crafts that haven't lost continuity, though it is getting very tough to attract young people... Well at least until recently...

A better option for someone who wants to learn is a factory, smallish where you get to see a lot of the work done is ideal. Bike Friday kind of place where they train everyone who works there to some extent.

unterhausen

I'm not aware that there was any likelihood of that back then. There were very few people that actually built frames in the U.S. in the '70s.

Some framebuilders obviously will hire people with no framebuilding experience to do some of the work. I hope to have enough business to do that myself. But it's certainly a buyer's market with respect to who they will take. If you monitor the internet, there are new people showing up at a fairly constant rate.

meech151 

When I wanted to learn how to build frames i didn't know there were a handful of schools to teach framebuilding so i just started calling different framebuilders to see if they would let me hang out for a week, anyway i called the dude at Land Shark not knowing who he was and he said yeah you can come out for $2500 a day. I now know that he is a very good framebuilder and very respected in the bicycle world and his bikes are sweet but he was a dick to talk to. That was just my experience with him. Koichi Yamaguchi is the man. Later

NoReg

But the way you have to look at it is that if you spend a day with him he is going to have to assume it is a lost day for him, plus he might imagine he is giving you something of value. So it is going to be like picking up a day of shop costs. 2500 is high for that for most people I would guess, but what then again what does a school take in for a day when a half dozen people are in the course. Most framebuilders probably don't want to take these kind of calls for the 1000th time.

meech151 

I understand your point but actually he told me no one had ever offered to pay him to watch and then added he would not be slowing down to show me anything. Once again, I now know how accomplished he is as a framebuilder and I love some of his paint schemes, however, $2500 to sit and watch, not to mention an attitude. Thanks for the insight though, he and I both came out better than had I gone in the end. My hats off to him and to any one else who builds frames for a living, its not easy I am finding out. Good day.

unterhausen

that wasn't very nice. I would think any current framebuilder would know about UBI, etc, and should point you to one of those schools.

I'm curious how you would handle someone that called and asked you the questions that you asked him.

redtires

lol...well then I guess I was one of the last. That's exactly what I did in the late 80's. It was an extremely sweet "career". That is if you can call it that. Very few people are successful in actually making it one though. It's a very tough business to succeed in, and you really do have to be a very consummate businessperson. I was very lucky though...and I ended up being a very good framebuilder. Unfortunately as carbon and titanium were rapidly gaining in the market share, our small shop just literally could not make enough to stay open and support even the five employees we had. So at the end of '94, we were all laid off and I ended up managing the service department in a big shop in Boulder. Those were heady days for sure...and I miss them, but I really really like the stability of my work now.

NoReg

meech151, by the way as far as people being AHs about that kind of thing, I ran into that when I wanted to learn boatbuilding back in the 80s. So it's too bad, but I know it happens, and they are still sorta ahole for doing it. I just didn't realize that I was being a jackass from their perspective. Not all your crafty types have great social skills. I also know some stories about "apprentices" that wouldn't take no for an answer, hung around with sad eyes for months. So if one has been through that, a good brisk kick in the nuts saves everyone a lot of time.

Nessism

So...who be you? Maybe... https://www.phred.org/~josh/build/match/match.html

JohnDThompson 

I don't recognize the rest of them, but this fellow is Tim Isaac:

Butterthebean

I envy you. Sounds like it was a great experience.

Big Steve

Building frames is not rocket science, but does require a mechanical mind and brazing and/or welding skills. Doug Curtiss and I are self-taught. We started building Curtlo frames in 1977 in my parents' basement after Doug and I had met at Kent State. We started with a plywood jig (we kept a fire extinguisher close by!) and cutting miters with half round double ******* files. Doug soon got invaluable experience gas welding (no kidding) Taylorcraft airframes in Aurora, Ohio. Doug stuck with the business, making a successful career of it, still building under the Curtlo name. Of course, he is now tooled up. He is a very talented and efficient framebuilder. I still build 3 or 4 frames a year, and wish my straight gig (attorney) gave me more time to build. Maybe someday. : )

Ronsonic 

I don't build frames, but know a thing or two about learning a craft. The first thing is a personal aptitude. Persistence goes a very, very long way and is itself a talent. Few people can stand to beat on a guitar all the hours that Eddie Van Halen did to get where he did, the talent isn't just in the ability to do the thing, it's in the ability to keep doing it. If you are driven to do something as crazy and hard to earn a living at as building frames you're probably already cutting stuff up and putting it together somehow or trying to.

Professionally I do music electronics, from tube guitar amps to surface mount digital synths. Interviewing someone for the job the most telling question is how many times as a child did you get in trouble taking everything apart and putting it back together again. I would expect that successful framebuilders are the sorts who are always building things, just what they do. The guys I see succeed in other artisan crafts come from a cultural background in which real men build and fix stuff. (Oh, yes, women too.)

The math requirement for my job is minor but vital, same in framebuilding. Most of it can be solved graphically and it sure isn't rocket science but it's there.

One of the things I see in the music trade are companies that sell aspiring builders all the tools to construct an instrument. To me this is sorta backwards. Part of the skill of building those things is in general handiness. The skills and tools to build a frame (or a guitar) are the same as those required to build the jigs and fixtures. This was something that was once the job of the apprentice. He would learn and develop skills by building tools and fixtures, and he would prepare for his own career by building his own over the years. Machinists still worked like this when I was coming up.

True, some things like a surface plate are beyond the ability of frame shop, these must be bought. But looking at the successful builders, I see a lot of self-made tooling and jigs. That is part of the craft and good practice in learning the craft.

Anyway, a few comments from other parts of the world, worth whatever they are.

unterhausen

then again, building tools is a good way to waste time better spent building frames. I know, I'm a master at that. OTOH, buying everything raises the price of entry to the $5k level at a minimum.

scbvideoboy

Tell me about it, I can spend tons more time making a fixture or jig or something to hold my work, and my second major attempt of frame building put me HOURS of after braze frame cleanup. Actual torch times are very little, all the cost is prep, details, jigging, setup and clean up.

I spent tons of time to file and clean up joints and then the two coats of powdercoat covered it all up!
DH