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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 08-04-09, 08:59 PM   #1
Veloria
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Lugged Mixte Frames: Who Still Makes Them?

I am wondering whether any frame builders are still able to make lugged mixte frames? By "mixte" I mean the classic style, with twin lateral stays extending continuously from the head tube to the rear dropouts. I have been told that lugs for mixtes are no longer available (I am guessing that means that Henry James no longer makes them?), but I know that some framebuilders are able to alter existing lugs to fit the mixte anatomy. So basically, I am wondering what my options are if I want a custom mixte, and if it must be lugged. Thanks in advance for any info.
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Old 08-04-09, 09:15 PM   #2
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I don't know much about the lug situation but you could get someone to fillet-braze it.

http://photobucket.com/meech151
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Old 08-04-09, 10:29 PM   #3
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I don't know much about the lug situation but you could get someone to fillet-braze it.

http://photobucket.com/meech151
I am specifically interested in lugged.

Last edited by Veloria; 08-04-09 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 08-05-09, 07:07 AM   #4
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I am specifically interested in lugged.
Mixte lugs aren't made anymore and I'm sure HJ never made them. I know there are still a few sets out there.
It's also possible to custom make the lugs. You could use a standard set of lugs and would only have to fab the seat lug (easy) and the upper head lug (a bit more work) to match.

The only issue I can see is that after all that work...it would still be a mixte
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Old 08-05-09, 10:36 AM   #5
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Mixte lugs aren't made anymore and I'm sure HJ never made them. I know there are still a few sets out there.
It's also possible to custom make the lugs. You could use a standard set of lugs and would only have to fab the seat lug (easy) and the upper head lug (a bit more work) to match.
So basically, the builders who say they cannot do it, are either unable to make the seat & upper head lugs, or are unwilling to bother?

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The only issue I can see is that after all that work...it would still be a mixte
Exactly! : )
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Old 08-05-09, 11:29 AM   #6
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You just aren't asking the right set of people.

historically, framebuilders have not made lugs. The builders doing it now are almost all fillet brazing a "lug" together, and then brazing the frame tubes into it. I built some mixtes where the mixte tubes were fillet brazed, and everything else was in a lug. I wonder if you are willing to pay what this effort would cost, I imagine the frame would be somewhere in the range of $2-3k U.S. A fillet brazed frame would generally be in the $1500 range.

I would look up Bohemian. I'm sure there are a lot of other builders that would do a great job as well.

Last edited by unterhausen; 08-05-09 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 08-05-09, 12:22 PM   #7
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Thanks unterhausen,

I have discussed this with several builders at this point, including Bohemian. For people like Bohemian and Peter Mooney, it is no problem, since they can easily alter lugs themselves or cast them from scratch. But as you pointed out, the price is quite high.

But there are builders -- respected, quality builders -- who quote in the mid $1000's for lugged diamond frames. Can it really be, that the alterations required for a mixte (keeping the lugged-ness as a constant) would double that cost?...
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Old 08-05-09, 12:49 PM   #8
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I'm no framebuilder, but even if you have the proper lugs, I'd think there is some extra work to attach the second seat of stays. The dropout region gets a bit busy, and there is a third attachment point on the seattube. So it's likely to cost more regardless.

Peter Weigle makes (very nice) mixtes. There was an article on Bicycle Quaterly about this one he made. MAP bicycles makes some too and there are surely others. Still they don't have the twin stays from the headtube you wish. In that BQ issue the different geos of mixte bikes is discussed too.
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Old 08-05-09, 01:03 PM   #9
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The angles for diamond frames are usually within 1° or 2°, so it's pretty easy to tweak lug angles of stock investment cast lugs - which are made by the thousands - to whatever angle is required for a specific frame. Mixte frames, like tandems, don't have consistent frame angles and aren't built in quantities big enough to justify tooling for production of investment cast lugs, so hand formed stamped lugs, which are very labor intensive, have to be used.

The tube angles of fillet brazed and TIG welded frames aren't constrained by the angles of available lugs, so it's much cheaper to make tandem and mixte frames using these tube joining methods.
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Old 08-05-09, 07:01 PM   #10
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You could try someone who is sitting on a big old stock of old lugs. Some of the French and British frame builders are very old established, and might have the appropriate lugs available.

Or how about the Rivendell Betty Fox?
http://www.rivbike.com/products/list...product=50-685
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Old 08-05-09, 08:46 PM   #11
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Only the seat tube lug would have to be made, the others are common with other frames. Doesn't seem like that difficult a project.
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Old 08-06-09, 12:08 AM   #12
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Bilenky:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2005/cc046-ronlau1105.html

Is this lugged enough for you?

http://www.coastouttabrooklyn.com/gallery.php

http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2007...by-johnny.html

As to the cost, it depends what the builder is doing. If he has to make all the lugs, because he wants a harmonious look, then he is doing a lot of the work twice over. Hand made lugs do not always look the same as cast lugs, they will have thicker radius to the joints just as a fillet brazed bike does, if they are fillet brazed. And it depends whether the builder takes this on as a complete all out specialty, as if you asked him to do a showbike with all new stuff in it, or whether this kind of frame is the norm. When dealing with a pro, you would like to imagine they are always building frame 100 in a given style, but this could be frame zero, or 5.
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Old 08-06-09, 07:01 AM   #13
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The links people have posted are examples of wonderful lugged bicycles, but not what I am after.

What I mean by a "classic mixte," is specifically this:



Note the twin lateral stays extending continuously from the head tube to the rear dropouts.

Rivendell's, VO's, Bilenky's, and Weigle's bicycles are very nice, but do not have this anatomy.
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Old 08-06-09, 07:16 AM   #14
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But there are builders -- respected, quality builders -- who quote in the mid $1000's for lugged diamond frames. Can it really be, that the alterations required for a mixte (keeping the lugged-ness as a constant) would double that cost?...
The builders you referenced would be in the $2000's for a diamond frame too though.
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Old 08-06-09, 07:44 AM   #15
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The builders you referenced would be in the $2000's for a diamond frame too though.
Mooney and Bohemian, yes.

But then there are other builders with super reputations (Jitensha Studios and Circle A are just a couple of examples), whose lugged diamond frames start in the mid-$1000's.
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Old 08-06-09, 09:56 AM   #16
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http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_miss_mercia.asp

Found a UK builder who still does Mixtes. They start at 625 pounds. Mercian make really nice bikes.
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Old 08-06-09, 02:11 PM   #17
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Those are nice bikes. There were very few high end mixtes made back in the day. I always wonder where the stashes of lugs ended up as bike factories went under. Most of them probably went to the dump, I'm sure some people have lifetime supplies of some of them though.
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Old 08-06-09, 04:58 PM   #18
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http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_miss_mercia.asp

Found a UK builder who still does Mixtes. They start at 625 pounds. Mercian make really nice bikes.
They no longer produce the model pictured : (

"...Your Miss Mercian frame will be built to suit you, now available with single top tube only (as twin lateral stays shown are no longer manufactured)... "

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There were very few high end mixtes made back in the day. I always wonder where the stashes of lugs ended up as bike factories went under. Most of them probably went to the dump, I'm sure some people have lifetime supplies of some of them though.
Yes, how frustrating! Well, maybe some day a stash will be discovered and unloaded onto the market. One can dream.
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Old 08-06-09, 05:39 PM   #19
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This was a topic on Frameforum 6-8 months ago, Veloria, you could join that forum and do a search, I believe the conclusion was that someone did indeed have a few sets. This maybe something you could obtain and take to a builder that you have chosen to work with. Good luck, and don't give up yet.
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Old 08-06-09, 09:29 PM   #20
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It was a post by Bruce Gordon
I'm thinking I saw on the framebuilders list that he had sold everything
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Old 08-06-09, 09:34 PM   #21
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Soma makes one, but sorry....not lugged.

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Old 08-07-09, 12:31 AM   #22
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The twin lateral is an inferior design, do you really want it? Rene Herse and Alex Singer abandoned this design for a reason. The bike flexes too much when you stand up to pedal from a stop or climbing a steep hill. The only place on a bike where the twin laterals would not use a conventional lug are where the stays attach to the top of the head tube ( okay the seat tube under the saddle is very easy to modify). Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember seeing any lugs that did this on my 1967 Bianchi Mixte. It appeared to be brazed to the head tube directly. The cost is going to be high because there is extra material and fabrication time. Also, a lot of frame builder's jigs would need some significant monkey wrenching to accomodate a twin lateral where the single tube bike would merely be PIA monkey clamping. This won't be cheap and I would be happy if I could find somebody competent and WILLING to do the job.
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Old 08-07-09, 09:46 AM   #23
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I would do it. I'd have to think a while about the lug though. I made a pair of mixtes when I was at Trek. They were fully lugged except at the join at the head lug. I don't remeber how I did that, there probably was a top tube lug involved somehow.

Most frame jigs wouldn't pose a problem for this.

Last edited by unterhausen; 08-07-09 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 08-07-09, 02:04 PM   #24
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I can build the frame It will require creating some custom lugs. See attached image. and please visit my website.
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Old 08-07-09, 02:35 PM   #25
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I can build the frame It will require creating some custom lugs. See attached image. and please visit my website.
Tim
Just checked out your frames.... very nice. Too bad us bike shop guys can't afford the good stuff.
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