Gas suppliers in UK
#1
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Gas suppliers in UK
I've been practicing brazing on and off with the gear in the workshop at my school, but I've decided I should probably buy my own equipment if I'm actually going to build frames, as I'm leaving school at the end of next year, and I'd like to be able to keep going with framebuilding. The problem I've been having is finding suppliers for the gases. I looked at BOC's site, which is where my school gets them, but BOC seem to charge for rental of the cylinders. Is there anywhere I can actually buy the cylinders, and just get them refilled when they run out? Ideally somewhere in the Reading area, which is where I live.
Also, I'll be doing fillet-brazing, probably using regular brass. Do I have to use oxy-acetylene, or would I be able to get away with oxy-propane or something?
Thanks in advance
Also, I'll be doing fillet-brazing, probably using regular brass. Do I have to use oxy-acetylene, or would I be able to get away with oxy-propane or something?
Thanks in advance
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The compressed gasses storage regulations in this country tend to make life difficult for people to store compressed gasses without being treated basically as a perpetual explosion hazard. Linde-BOC won't sell you gas bottles because then you own it and they aren't entitled to inspect it for corrosion, signs of potential failure, etc. If you rent the bottle from them, they provied all that as a service when you require a fill-up, and can replace the container as and when it's needed.
Essentially, they can't/won't trespass on your property to ensure you aren't going to blow yourself up unless they own the object. Then it's not trespass. Somehow.
Diver's tankers are the exception to that rule, for reasons I can't fathom (no pun intended), but essentially because you are meant to have insurance for them or such, which somehow is meant to miraculously prevent them from being a dangerous container.
Welcome to UK legislation. Please leave reasoning at the door.
Essentially, they can't/won't trespass on your property to ensure you aren't going to blow yourself up unless they own the object. Then it's not trespass. Somehow.
Diver's tankers are the exception to that rule, for reasons I can't fathom (no pun intended), but essentially because you are meant to have insurance for them or such, which somehow is meant to miraculously prevent them from being a dangerous container.
Welcome to UK legislation. Please leave reasoning at the door.
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"Linde-BOC won't sell you gas bottles because then you own it and they aren't entitled to inspect it for corrosion, signs of potential failure, etc. If you rent the bottle from them, they provied all that as a service when you require a fill-up, and can replace the container as and when it's needed."
The way that works around here is that they sell the bottles but they don't refill them, they just swap them, so there isn't a bottle with your name on it. This insures all the bottles are equally dubious. Some other places will sell and refill one's own bottles. I deal with BOC so there must be some wrinkle in the UK that we don't have yet. As the "owner" of the bottle, I don't trust them much. It is my kids and neighbours who are being put at risk because I can't control for quality through the simple gambit of buying new and taking care of it. Not dising BOC who have been pretty good to deal with, but the bottle I get do not look all that new to me...
The way that works around here is that they sell the bottles but they don't refill them, they just swap them, so there isn't a bottle with your name on it. This insures all the bottles are equally dubious. Some other places will sell and refill one's own bottles. I deal with BOC so there must be some wrinkle in the UK that we don't have yet. As the "owner" of the bottle, I don't trust them much. It is my kids and neighbours who are being put at risk because I can't control for quality through the simple gambit of buying new and taking care of it. Not dising BOC who have been pretty good to deal with, but the bottle I get do not look all that new to me...
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By the way, this could take one back to the other thread on propane and O2 generators. Can one get a propane BBQ canister easily enough in the UK, can one get an O2 generator from the dead hands of the dearly departed at a reasonable price? If so, Bob's your uncle.
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I searched for "propane" and "O2 generator" on the site, but couldn't find the thread. How do I get to it? The idea certainly sounds like it might work.
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The way that works around here is that they sell the bottles but they don't refill them, they just swap them, so there isn't a bottle with your name on it. This insures all the bottles are equally dubious. Some other places will sell and refill one's own bottles. I deal with BOC so there must be some wrinkle in the UK that we don't have yet. As the "owner" of the bottle, I don't trust them much. It is my kids and neighbours who are being put at risk because I can't control for quality through the simple gambit of buying new and taking care of it. Not dising BOC who have been pretty good to deal with, but the bottle I get do not look all that new to me...
Suffice to say, the UK makes it very difficult to own anything potentially explosive. Consider it a throwback to a time when our Police *were* competent in dealing with an actual terrorist organisation, not a media-created one, for well over fifty years. Although I could have just ended that senstence after wthe word 'competent'.
Propane canisters for home plumbing? No porblem. But oxygen generators for the old and infirm are on a loan basis. They're returned to the company on notice of death. My nan had one until she passed away, and those vultures were round like a shot after to reclaim their expensive kit. There aren't many on the private sector market over here.
#7
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Airburst, If you go over to the framebuilders list archives <https://search.bikelist.org/> and type in “propane” in the search string you will find a lot of information about using propane instead of acetylene. It is a decent option. We have a little frame shop outside of Kiev, Ukraine where we make bicycles for pastors and we use propane there because of the convenience of getting it. The short version of the difference is that it requires a little bigger tip and has a bit cooler flame. It is also a little harder to light and adjust and makes more noise.
By the way when I was searching around England looking for a place to apprentice in the 70’s (this was before anyone except Albert Eisentraut knew much about what they were doing over here in the States) I often stayed in the dorm at Newbold College in Binfield near Bracknell, a short distance away from you in Reading.
By the way when I was searching around England looking for a place to apprentice in the 70’s (this was before anyone except Albert Eisentraut knew much about what they were doing over here in the States) I often stayed in the dorm at Newbold College in Binfield near Bracknell, a short distance away from you in Reading.
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By the way when I was searching around England looking for a place to apprentice in the 70’s (this was before anyone except Albert Eisentraut knew much about what they were doing over here in the States) I often stayed in the dorm at Newbold College in Binfield near Bracknell, a short distance away from you in Reading.
@Falanx, Would a big BBQ propane bottle be OK in terms of fittings?
#9
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I apprenticed at Ellis Briggs up north in West Yorkshire. They are still in business. At that time it was the best possible place for me to learn (and also see how painting was done). The whole framebuilding scene in both America and the UK has completely changed since the 70’s. But that is a whole other subject thread.
Last edited by Doug Fattic; 06-23-10 at 01:47 PM.
#10
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the prohibitions on private ownership are to protect the gas company's profits, nothing to do with safety. People that are going to do stupid things with a tank are going to do stupid things to tank whether they own it or rent it. That's why there are periodic hydro testing requirements, and inspections at every fill. That should catch the morons who destroy valves.
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Try this one it drifts into the dark arts, but wouldn't show up in a search too easily:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Acetylene-Air
Falanx, I hear you, but I do wonder whether such a tank is safer than a brand new one.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Acetylene-Air
Falanx, I hear you, but I do wonder whether such a tank is safer than a brand new one.
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the prohibitions on private ownership are to protect the gas company's profits, nothing to do with safety. People that are going to do stupid things with a tank are going to do stupid things to tank whether they own it or rent it. That's why there are periodic hydro testing requirements, and inspections at every fill. That should catch the morons who destroy valves.
Of course idiots are going to to silly things with tanks. There's nothing you can do to stop that. But there's nothing like legislating that a body has right of trespass to make sure these things are detected... We're th ehomne of knee-jerk legislation, but can you imagine how many loud bangs that devastae a cul-de-sac would be required to ensure that legislation had come in nonetheless? Not many, I'd wager.
#15
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Are you suggesting -shock, horror- that a large multinationals have lobbied government to ensure that the huge backhanders and massive taxes they pay to same are maintained? Oh, the cynical humanity ;-)
Of course idiots are going to to silly things with tanks. There's nothing you can do to stop that. But there's nothing like legislating that a body has right of trespass to make sure these things are detected... We're th ehomne of knee-jerk legislation, but can you imagine how many loud bangs that devastae a cul-de-sac would be required to ensure that legislation had come in nonetheless? Not many, I'd wager.
Of course idiots are going to to silly things with tanks. There's nothing you can do to stop that. But there's nothing like legislating that a body has right of trespass to make sure these things are detected... We're th ehomne of knee-jerk legislation, but can you imagine how many loud bangs that devastae a cul-de-sac would be required to ensure that legislation had come in nonetheless? Not many, I'd wager.
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No, I meant louder, sharper, much more *final* bangs than that ;-)
#17
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And remarkably, I've never even heard of such an accident in the US, happening in a home/farm/hobby shop, of which there are many. (I rode past two garage sales with oxy-acetylene tanks on carts last weekend, on a ~30 mile ride.) I've heard of it happening in industrial and university settings. I know people who've set themselves on fire with a torch (I've only managed to set myself on fire while stick welding), any number of people who've set something on fire, but not even any stories of someone who's blown up a tank. It just doesn't happen. Any decision not to sell things has nothing to do with safety, but is entirely driven by monopolistic rent seeking.
#18
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And remarkably, I've never even heard of such an accident in the US, happening in a home/farm/hobby shop, of which there are many. (I rode past two garage sales with oxy-acetylene tanks on carts last weekend, on a ~30 mile ride.) I've heard of it happening in industrial and university settings. I know people who've set themselves on fire with a torch (I've only managed to set myself on fire while stick welding), any number of people who've set something on fire, but not even any stories of someone who's blown up a tank. It just doesn't happen. Any decision not to sell things has nothing to do with safety, but is entirely driven by monopolistic rent seeking.
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my experience here in the U.S. was that they wanted to sell me a small tank in preference to renting me bigger tanks. Back when I got my first tanks in the '70s, the rent was paid if they could sell you the gas. Things have changed a little.
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Of course. Small bottle refills yield greater profit because they charge more $ per unit of measure - grocery stores have been doing this for decades. And if you own the bottles, you are responsible for, and are expected to pay for required hydro testing when due - which can often exceed the value of the bottle.
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no, I swap bottles every time they are refilled, so I never have to get them inspected. Not sure about the refill prices, didn't compare.
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But take those same 'owner' bottles to a different LWS (i.e. say, you moved to a different town for example), then rest assured that the LWS is NOT obligated to follow the same exchange program and many will only refill YOUR bottle - as such, you WILL be responsible for any repairs (i.e. valve replacement, etc) and ALL future hydros.
If you lease bottles and later have to move to a different location, then you simply return them, retain your deposit and start all over again at the new LWS.
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Thanks for all the advice everyone! It looks like I'll probably have to pursue different ways of building frames, at least until I've got a little more money.
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https://www.flamingbarbecues.co.uk/6-...-Burner-Hooded
https://secure.calor.co.uk/OrderCalo...geType=propane
These are the kind of bottles I use for propane, though I have yet to see a fiberglass one.
https://secure.calor.co.uk/OrderCalo...geType=propane
These are the kind of bottles I use for propane, though I have yet to see a fiberglass one.