odd mix and match frame with Rossin forks question
I originally posted this under Classic and Vintage, but as I look at it more closely it might be more of a Framebuilders question.
I have a rather plain looking frame that I found in NE France. what's interesting is what appears to be Rossin "R's" on the forks? and yet no other distinctive markings elsewhere on the frame?
Our first guess was that the bike builder had simply recycled a Rossin fork onto an unrelated frame.
But looking more closely, the interesting thing is that the "slipover sleeve" style of the front fork dropouts is unlike anything I have ever seen (in my admittedly limited experience with frames). and yet they seem to match the unbranded rear dropouts .
How common are these slipover sleeve type dropouts?
Could a frame builder have ordered them specifically to use with this mix-and-match project?
Does anyone have any photos of other elements of a Rossin main frame (Lugs etc.) that I could use to compare more further?
Last edited by pstock; 09-16-10 at 08:25 AM.
I don't know anything about Rossin bikes but this frame is an interesting mix of construction techniques. I have a few guesses. Perhaps someone can follow up with facts.
(1) early asian import frame that was TIG welded when it was produced and was brazed over at Rossin (or whoever maker their bikes.) (look inside the HT/BB for signs of weld drop-through)
(2) a geometry sample that was built to try something new. Mix of handwork and production parts suggests this.
(3) a early 90's production Rossin.
the only tidbit I can add is that the name on the bike "J Ph Pipart" seems to refer to "Jean-Philippe Pipart", an ex-pro french racer from the La Redoubte team who had some presence end of the 70s, early 80s and who was born in the NE of France.
Now, whether it was his winter training bike or whether on retirement he set up a shop and put his name on frames I don't know.
I cannot find a current shop with the name "Pipart" anywhere.
Final clue might be that the "J Ph Pipart" sticker on the toptube is a simple clear sticker (that peels straight off). It is not a decal under a clearcoat, so it would logically simply have been slapped on a finished production frame of some kind. I expect that a premium custom made frame would have merited better graphics.
socketed dropouts are very common. It looks like a repaint to me, but it's really hard to tell. It's possible that Rossin didn't buy all of the dropouts/crowns with their logo from the casting house, and a builder got their hands on some.
Actually, now that I think about it, it probably is just a Rossin fork hung off of another builder's frame
Looks like a fairly standard fillet brazed frame to me. I have seen a couple of european frames with a lugged bb and the rest fillet. Not sure if that is anti-fillet bigotry or what.
Last edited by unterhausen; 09-16-10 at 10:50 AM.
"socketed dropouts are very common."
I have to defer to you more experienced folks on this point because in my personal stash of about 100 steel-framed mostly European bikes, none of the others have socketed dropouts.
Nor, in all hundreds of the bikes I have admired in photos and in person over the years, do I recall seeing any with socketed dropouts.
"it probably is just a Rossin fork hung off of another builder's frame"
But would it really be so routine that a frame builder, having this Rossin fork in hand that he or she wanted to recycle, could / would take the trouble of building a frame with socketed dropouts, just so they matched better?
(actually searching around I see that similar looking socketed dropouts can be ordered so, Yea, it wouldn't seem much of a stretch for a builder to get matching-ish rear dropouts before embarking on the frame.)
well, like I said, it looks like a repaint to me, so the builder may have had nothing to do with the matching of the dropouts. I don't think there is anything ruling out the idea that the whole bike is a Rossin, although they generally had their logo all over.
There have always been a limited number of casting houses that made frame parts. Thus it is often possible to match a custom frame part, albeit without the logos.
I wasn't paying attention when socketed dropouts became common, but I think it was in the mid-80s. Before that I never saw any. So it really depends on the age of your collection.
"Not sure if that is anti-fillet bigotry or what."
Could be. But it would also make sense if there was anything about the geometry that wasn't weird in the BB area, but was weird above, one would have BB strength, and also possibly all the BBs done at one station, and the advantages of fitting tubes to BBs, and only contend with the fillets where the loads are lower, and the copes are going to be there anyway. Of course the DT to HT joint is pretty heavily taxed, so if they didn't lug that it would be a vote of confidence. For the most part seems like production efficiency.
by the way, it is an Italian threaded BB