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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 11-20-10, 04:52 AM   #1
bleedingapple
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Starting to dabble had some questions

So, I am starting to make the leep from just a rider to a builder. I am in a class right now where I am starting to learn brazing. For starters I have a design question (this is more for a future bike than anything thing I would do now) I was wondering if it was possible to use mtb chain stays but with cross geometry. My dream is to build a CX bike that can fit 2.1 or maybe 2.3 tires. And no not a 29er. More like a really beefy cross check. My other question (and I saw this mentioned a little) are there any lugs that would work with this or am I gonna need to fillet braze it? Any recommended tubes sets for a CX frame?

As far as those sticky posts is there a webpage I can go to, to see all the pics as they are no longer loading. Any are there some other resources I should look at for info (I am gonna be getting the Paterek book) I am running out of things to read online at least as far as I can find.

Fillet pro? is it really that good? its looks really pricey unless I am of in understanding how much you need in building a frame? does 5oz last a while? I know this is not something I will be using soon, just trying to get the info now is all. As far as beginning, will any brass rod work or am I looking for certain formulation?

Anyway thank you very much and I look forward to continuing to read and learn here.

Last edited by bleedingapple; 11-20-10 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 11-20-10, 03:26 PM   #2
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I'm not sure you need to go to MTB parts just to run fat tires, that is more a mater of how you set the spacing. On the other hand, if you want to run them, then so long as they are long enough, presumably 29ers would do, I don't see a problem. Never tried what you are proposing though.

Don't know about your pics. There is actually not that much solid info on frame building. Nobody has done a real book, which is odd, and there isn't anything one TIG. A few years back I think Neil said there were four frame books in the works. Personally the best source is the Paterek videos, but I feel that building has passed them by, there is new normal but nobody has described it. Paterek is a machinist trained frame builder. I think if you have a machinist background, you can tell where the line dividing machinist practices and frame building is likely to be. Otherwise you learn a lot of stuff which isn't how it is really done. That's why I like the videos, because even with their length they are more linear, and of course they are videos which is a better method of teaching. Actually I prefer length, but I know many don't, my concern with brevity is getting all the stuff that is reference only out of the way. I don't pretend to know the history, but I think that part of the new normal is also built on Paterek in terms of fixtures and milling machines.

We have the new lugs book, but it is written for home builders with few resources, which is one possible target. What are missing is pro level books, and amateur books that have all the pro stuff you need to do, minus the stuff that is only efficient for production. It does at time feel like the amateur want do just the opposite, use mills and MAPP, for instance.

You don't need to use fillet pro, not as a beginer, though it might be easier. For silver you can use Harris, or for brass you can use brass and water soluble flux. The latter is hard to get locally sometimes. There is a thread on Velosalon that discussed some of the new options, which are clearly prefered, but the old options work fine on the kind of tubes you will likely encounter in your early work.

Last edited by NoReg; 11-20-10 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 11-22-10, 03:11 PM   #3
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I am looking to get the clearance on the sides that mtb s bend stays would offer. I dont want the full length of 29er stays. I want the same geo as the cross check but with a bit more side clearance in the rear. Using mtb stays seemed to me the best idea unless someone has some other design ideas to help make this frame a reality.
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Old 11-23-10, 12:57 PM   #4
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Beats me. I thought a 29er stay was an MTB stay with the length required for 700c. But regardless of what they call it, they can still be quite a bit longer out of the pack. So you can use MTB stays and just trim them to the correct length. The other thing to look for is contouring. I use straight stays, bend and pouch them myself. But if you are using pre-bent stays, then you want the bends to fall in the right place. Might be an idea to call your supplier and tell them what you are planing and ask for a recommendation. There certainly is some stay that will work for what you have in mind. I would imagine you could find both MTB and road stays that would work. For instance I use some road stays that have substantial extra length and beef for long wheel base touring bikes. They should also work.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you don't want it to be a 29er, but you do want to consider an MTB stay for a bike that has 700c wheels. I would get it if you wanted a road stay that would accommodate 29er wheels, that would be a change up. But an MTB stay for 700 C wheels that carry 2"+ tires, but aren't 29ers, what is the distinction you are after?

Last edited by NoReg; 11-23-10 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 11-26-10, 12:03 PM   #5
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Columbus offers several S bend road stays.
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Old 11-26-10, 01:42 PM   #6
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What is the tech advantage of these fancy stays?
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Old 11-26-10, 02:42 PM   #7
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What is the tech advantage of these fancy stays?
They are 7% lighter and 12% stiffer and if you can get your hands on the Pego-Richie versions it is claimed they actually fit in the BB shell sockets with minimal/no extra manipulation.
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Old 11-27-10, 04:22 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
Beats me. I thought a 29er stay was an MTB stay with the length required for 700c. But regardless of what they call it, they can still be quite a bit longer out of the pack. So you can use MTB stays and just trim them to the correct length. The other thing to look for is contouring. I use straight stays, bend and pouch them myself. But if you are using pre-bent stays, then you want the bends to fall in the right place. Might be an idea to call your supplier and tell them what you are planing and ask for a recommendation. There certainly is some stay that will work for what you have in mind. I would imagine you could find both MTB and road stays that would work. For instance I use some road stays that have substantial extra length and beef for long wheel base touring bikes. They should also work.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you don't want it to be a 29er, but you do want to consider an MTB stay for a bike that has 700c wheels. I would get it if you wanted a road stay that would accommodate 29er wheels, that would be a change up. But an MTB stay for 700 C wheels that carry 2"+ tires, but aren't 29ers, what is the distinction you are after?

I just want sure if you could get road stay to accommodate 29er tires. I didnt know if the s-bend in them was wide enough, or what other mods I needed to consider for this. My goal is to have a bike as close to road geo while fitting 29er wheels. A true monster cross. I am trying to void the usual long stays of the current 29ers. Kinda like the new Voodoo frames but even more clearance.
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Old 11-27-10, 11:00 AM   #9
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if the mtb or s-bend road stays don't do what you want, you're going to have to bend your own. This is pretty common
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Old 11-27-10, 04:30 PM   #10
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How does the curvature make them stiffer? Or is it materials and section? Normally taking the longer distance between two points does not contribute to stiffness.
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