Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Some questions about a very old 531 (?) frame

    I have some questions about an old English frame that I bought recently, which is said to be from the 40's and said to be made of 531. I started a thread about it in C&V where you'll find some pictures, discussion, etc. but I think you can answer my questions without bothering with the photos. The seat post size is 27.0.

    1. The steerer tube has an Accles & Pollock tubing stamp; was it normal to mix tubesets? Would you expect the rest of the tubing to be Accles & Pollock, or 531, or any random thing?

    2. I'm taking all the paint off. It's mostly gone already. Can I expect to find tubing stamps on the other tubes? If so, where?

    3. This frame has NO ventilation holes. No tiny little holes in the fork blades or stays, and even the main triangle tubes are sealed; the head tube is a complete cylinder with no access to top tube or down tube; likewise the BB shell has no openings to the seat tube, down tube, or stays; and the seat tube has no opening to the top tube. What does this tell you about the frame, its maker, or anything? Is this a bad thing?

    4. It's a big frame; the seat tube measures 24" c-t. The frame weighs 71 oz, and the fork weighs 22 oz. Is that about right for 531 butted tubing?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    My Bikes
    Kirk
    Posts
    174
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not an expert but I play one on TV................ that said I know a bit about tubing in general and about how bikes are made so I may be able to give you some general info.

    1) is is totally normal for builders of all eras to mix tubesets. Sometimes it's a performance issue and sometimes it's a pragmatic issue of it being the only tubes on the shelf. I say one should take the tubing decal on frames with a large grain of salt. The decal being there can mean little to nothing.

    2) I doubt you will find much in the way of marking on the tubes. If they were columbus you might find the 'dove' logo stamped in the tube somewhere and you might not......... it can often be on the part of the tube cut off when the tube was cut to length. If it is Reynolds I doubt you'll find anything. Some tubes were stamped but not all and the stamping was really shallow and hard to see before it was blasted and painted let alone 60 years later. Some Reynolds had a printing on it but it would be gone with the paint. Frankly it may be near impossible to tell exactly what tubing the bike is made from. The good part is that it doesn't matter much beyond satisfying your curiosity.............. most of the tubes of the day were considered to be nearly interchangeable and there was no real weight or performance difference between them. The real significance with the tubes then was marketing advantage so the maker would brag about using Brand X to get the phone to ring.

    3) I bet once all the paint is gone that you will find very small vent holes that have been filled with brass. The will be tiny and hard to see. I don't know enough history for this trait to give the maker away. From a pragmatic view point I'll say that having no vent holes isn't a good thing but how bad could it be seeing as the bike is 60 years old and it's still kicking. If it ain't broke......

    4) It's a big heavy frame and I'll bet it's about right for any butted tubes of the day - Reynolds included.

    Are you going to repaint it?

    dave

  3. #3
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Thanks, Dave!

    Yes, I'll paint it, or have someone paint it. You'll see finished photos of it one day, on my other thread... and with luck I'll ride it a thousand miles next year!

  4. #4
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    vermont
    My Bikes
    Many
    Posts
    3,093
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    It's a good idea to vent the tubes of a steel frame into the BB shell. It seems very strange that the BB shell is closed. Many builders provide a thin sheet metal shield to divert water dripping down the inside tube away from the bearings. Could this be the case?

    I weighed the Hercules I mentioned before and yours is quite a bit lighter. I will weigh a few more tomorrow.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  5. #5
    THE Materials Oracle Falanx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Finally... home :-)
    My Bikes
    Univega Alpina 5.1 that became a 5.9, that became a road bike... DMR TrailStar custom build
    Posts
    502
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    All right, from the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    1. The steerer tube has an Accles & Pollock tubing stamp; was it normal to mix tubesets? Would you expect the rest of the tubing to be Accles & Pollock, or 531, or any random thing?
    Ackles and Pollock are part of the portfolio of what was once called Tubing Investments Reynolds. These days they're called Apollo. 531 is Reynolds' steel, but just like AMD used to make a second source of Intel CPUs, there's no reason why EN16 steel couldn't be drawn to tube by lots of companies, especially not one intimately associated with Reynolds, and incorporated in their frames. The number never changed, just the name on the Tax Returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    2. I'm taking all the paint off. It's mostly gone already. Can I expect to find tubing stamps on the other tubes? If so, where?
    Unlikely. There tubing stamp on the steerer is for verification of the provenance, and is hidden for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    3. This frame has NO ventilation holes. No tiny little holes in the fork blades or stays, and even the main triangle tubes are sealed; the head tube is a complete cylinder with no access to top tube or down tube; likewise the BB shell has no openings to the seat tube, down tube, or stays; and the seat tube has no opening to the top tube. What does this tell you about the frame, its maker, or anything? Is this a bad thing?
    It tells you that an appreciation of corrosion is lacking. Water gets in, end of. It needs to be able to drain or evaporate.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    4. It's a big frame; the seat tube measures 24" c-t. The frame weighs 71 oz, and the fork weighs 22 oz. Is that about right for 531 butted tubing?
    5lbs for a 2 foot frame? Yeah, I'd accep that.
    "While my father fought for you, I learnt. While my father glorified your petty administration, I learnt. While he longed every day for our line, Adun’s line, to be restored, I learnt. He sent me away to bring the Dark Templar back when the time was right!
    "And you tell me that I cannot do this? That I cannot feel the weight of the universe?
    "Damn you, Tellan! Aldaris killed my father!"

  6. #6
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Thanks, guys!

    Okay, update time. All the paint is off, except for a few tiny spots. I took it off with a fairly innocuous chemical stripper. Under the paint I found shadows of the original Fothergill decals (see my thread in C&V), but I did NOT find any more tubing markings, and I most definitely did NOT find any ventilation holes, brass filled or otherwise.

    Frank, the possibility of a sleeve in the BB shell is not lost on me, and in fact it looks like there might be something there; but I have not been able to poke anything out of there. The threads go in 2 cm or so from each side, and where they stop the shell gets thicker. I'll try to photograph this for you.

    But I remind you, the head tube is done the same way! Don't most frames have a hole from the head tube into the top tube and the down tube? This one doesn't.

    Okay, accepting that there IS NO provision for ventillation; and that the frame has survived 60+ years of English weather without rusting away. Evidently there is no moisture in the fork, stays, top tube, downtube. The only place for water to get in would be the seat tube, and I can probably avoid that by using a sealed seat post.

    On the other hand, the frame is bare of paint now. Now, before I paint it, would be a perfect time to drill ventillation holes in the fork and stays; and of course I can drill or dremel holes from the inside of the BB and head tube if I want. Should I? If so, how?

  7. #7
    THE Materials Oracle Falanx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Finally... home :-)
    My Bikes
    Univega Alpina 5.1 that became a 5.9, that became a road bike... DMR TrailStar custom build
    Posts
    502
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If there really is no form of sealing been carried out, and no drillings in the frame for bottle cage mounts, racks, mudguards that kind of thing, then water isn't going to be able to get into those sealed tubes. The presence of a sudden step in the BB shell doesn't neccesarily mean that there's a sealing sleeve or anything, it may simply have been machined so, although it's rather heavy way of doing it. I'm still not comfortable with the idea of a tube full of hot gas being unable to escape, but the only real risk is to the welder at the time. One atmosphere at room temperature cycled up to several at high temperature then cooled again is still only one atmosphere.

    As a result, the only real corrosion risk is possibly at the bottom of the seat tube, which if it happens will start at the edge of the interior of the joint and eat through the tube before it ever penetrates the BB shell.

    The tl;dr is, don't drill if you don't want to. Just soak the inside of that seat tube with framesaver.
    "While my father fought for you, I learnt. While my father glorified your petty administration, I learnt. While he longed every day for our line, Adun’s line, to be restored, I learnt. He sent me away to bring the Dark Templar back when the time was right!
    "And you tell me that I cannot do this? That I cannot feel the weight of the universe?
    "Damn you, Tellan! Aldaris killed my father!"

  8. #8
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Okay, will do. Thanks again!

  9. #9
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Update...

    The frame is painted, by me, with a brush (I won't be bragging about this job, but for the sake of completeness I will post pics sooner or later). And I've started building it back up.

    Well, when I screwed the fixed BB cup in, and tightened it down, it wouldn't tighten down. It turns out the BB threads are cut into a removable sleeve, and the whole sleeve was turning. I was able to push it all the way out, revealing the open ends of the down tube, seat tube, and chain stays. So, Frank, you were basically right. The BB shell is not threaded, but was specifically cast to the size of a Bayliss-Wiley oilbath BB unit; there's a hole in the top that lines up with the oil zerk on the top of the left side of the shell, and two threaded holes in the bottom that line up with holes in the bottom of the shell. These hold the sleeve in place. There are two, I suppose, so you can take one out to let the oil drain out without letting the whole sleeve move.

    The fact that the BB shell is specifically sized to fit the Bayliss-Wiley oilbath BB suggests to me that the lugs were made by Bayliss Wiley. Does anyone know if Bayliss-Wiley made lugs?

  10. #10
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    vermont
    My Bikes
    Many
    Posts
    3,093
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I think it was most common to grind or ream out the threads for that type of BB. Is there any trace of a secondary operation? (machine lines from reaming)
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  11. #11
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1945? Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1954 Drysdale, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,202
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ftwelder View Post
    I think it was most common to grind or ream out the threads for that type of BB. Is there any trace of a secondary operation? (machine lines from reaming)
    I saw something like that on that old Dawes that Zaphod Beeblebrox bought last month. But on mine, I'd have to say no, no way. The inside of the shell is totally smooth. The threaded sleeve is not thin; if memory serves, it has a wall thickness around 1 mm, and the cast BB shell is another 3, at least around the edges. The fixed cup has an extra flange, the exterior diameter of which matches the interior diameter BB shell. The adjusting ring has the same flange --so it has an L-shaped section, something I haven't seen before. It's well made stuff, and it really looks like it was all made to go together; no evidence of any retrofit. But, as always: what do I know!

  12. #12
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,378
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Are we going to see pictures?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •