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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 01-10-11, 11:47 AM   #1
VT Biker
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1 1/8" Lugs?

So -

I am looking into getting a custom track frame, and would prefer a modern update of the classic lugged bike. I want something that is going to be fairly light, but still have the overall steel frame feel and ride. This would mean (I know - some like Kirk thinks this is blasphemy) using a 1 1/8" head tube with ENVE carbon fork with the lugged bike, and oversized tubes. I am not looking for a track frame for riding with the hipster crowd, but an honest to goodness traditional track frame to race at the local velodromes here in Colorado.

However - it seems that almost all lugged bikes I have seen still adhere to the 1" head tube diameter.

So my question is:

A) Do they make lugs for 1 1/8" head tub diameters?
B) Do they make lugs for aero shaped tube sets? lugged, aero steel bike with oversized tubes is kind of what I envision, but the aero tubes are not necessary for this bike


Any other information on this would be helpful, as I want to get a decent idea as to what is possible as I start down this path.

Thanks,
Brad
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Old 01-10-11, 12:44 PM   #2
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Someone will be along... In the meantime. They do, they make them for stuff like MTBs. If you get really wild with angles and tubings you are into a custom lug world, or those things that look like lugs but kinda aren't bi.. somethingorother. Also if you are big and strong, you may want to carefully calibrate how light you make a frame like that.

The modern update of a classic lugged frame is either tig welded or brazed, which is where you will end up if you do custom lugs also. I am not sure why it would look cool to have deep section aero tubing in a lug. That would sorta indicate a lack of understanding of how stuff works rather than something else. It would be like I-phoning on one of those wooden crank phones with the earpiece that looks like a bell. When you go back you have to choose your icons, and how they are used. I think a bond villain could still have one of those cool desk phones from the sixties, you can still buy those. But one of those early cell phones with the cord to a thing the size of a lunchbox? Doubts. Anyway, follow your vision, and we will all be impressed when you pull it off.
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Old 01-10-11, 01:11 PM   #3
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Peterpan - I guess I was thinking in terms of aero tubing more akin to the tubing you see on Yamaguchi bikes, not akin to the aluminum tubing you see on Tiermeyer's frames.

My main emphasis on the design is the 1 1/8" headset, because of the limited nature of the 1" head tubes when it comes to forks, as well as threadless stems.

I essentially want a modern lugged bike with an emphasis on performance, versus a bike designed and built more as a show bike or a fixie for riding on the street.
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Old 01-10-11, 01:14 PM   #4
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Yes, there are lugs for OS head tubes. Not hard to find at all.

I do not know of any lugsets for "aero" tubes; most aero frames I have seen were fillet brazed or TIG'd. However, if you're looking for performance from a stiffness perspective, you'll want to avoid squashed aero tubes.
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Old 01-10-11, 01:19 PM   #5
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Yes, there are lugs for oversize and double oversize tubes with 1 1/8" steerers. Look at Nova, the ones you want are 36mm. I have to say I'm not convinced that a carbon fork makes all that much sense on a track bike, weight has never really been that much of a concern.


There are no lugs for aero shaped tubing, it doesn't really make sense if you think about it. Fillet brazing or tig is the way to go with that.
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Old 01-10-11, 01:23 PM   #6
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1. Yes, there are 4 or 5 lugsets out there that use the 1.125" steerer and will work for a road/track bike. Primo example: http://www.llewellynbikes.com/galler...0/aaa.jpg.html
2. No, aero lugsets haven't been made for quite some time. Peterpan has a good point about mixing lugs/aero tubes on a modern bike.
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Old 01-10-11, 07:21 PM   #7
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Yeah, your real needs are easily met!
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Old 01-11-11, 05:55 PM   #8
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pursuit stanridge speed by stanridgespeed bicycles, on Flickr

fillet brazed columbus/nova aero tubing.
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Old 01-12-11, 05:06 PM   #9
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That thing goes so fast the rear wheel caught up with the seat tube!
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Old 01-12-11, 11:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by VT Biker View Post
So -

I am looking into getting a custom track frame, and would prefer a modern update of the classic lugged bike. I want something that is going to be fairly light, but still have the overall steel frame feel and ride. This would mean (I know - some like Kirk thinks this is blasphemy) using a 1 1/8" head tube with ENVE carbon fork with the lugged bike, and oversized tubes. I am not looking for a track frame for riding with the hipster crowd, but an honest to goodness traditional track frame to race at the local velodromes here in Colorado.

However - it seems that almost all lugged bikes I have seen still adhere to the 1" head tube diameter.

So my question is:

A) Do they make lugs for 1 1/8" head tub diameters?
B) Do they make lugs for aero shaped tube sets? lugged, aero steel bike with oversized tubes is kind of what I envision, but the aero tubes are not necessary for this bike


Any other information on this would be helpful, as I want to get a decent idea as to what is possible as I start down this path.

Thanks,
Brad
Hey,

I don't necessarily think a carbon fork is the best choice but I don't think it's a bad choice. Whatever you makes you happy seems fine to me FWIW.

There are some very nice oversized lugs out there - my favorites being from Darrell Llewellyn. Google him and check them out. Good stuff.

I do not know of any aero lugsets - that doesn't mean they aren't out there but I've never come across them. I'd look on Ceeway and see what Peter has. At the same time I'd be hesitant to use aero tubes for a multi use track bike. I think most would find it to be lacking in enough torsional stiffness to feel good climbing the banking. big round tubes seem the be the right way to go here IMO.

Have fun,

dave
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Old 01-13-11, 12:09 AM   #11
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Nova carries some of the Llewellyn lugs as does Ceeway.
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Old 01-13-11, 01:32 PM   #12
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Hey,

I don't necessarily think a carbon fork is the best choice but I don't think it's a bad choice. Whatever you makes you happy seems fine to me FWIW.

There are some very nice oversized lugs out there - my favorites being from Darrell Llewellyn. Google him and check them out. Good stuff.

I do not know of any aero lugsets - that doesn't mean they aren't out there but I've never come across them. I'd look on Ceeway and see what Peter has. At the same time I'd be hesitant to use aero tubes for a multi use track bike. I think most would find it to be lacking in enough torsional stiffness to feel good climbing the banking. big round tubes seem the be the right way to go here IMO.

Have fun,

dave
So what is the deal with all of the individuals riding around on Aero Yamaguchi's and especially the Tiermeyer bikes? A ton of those at the Boulder Velodrome.
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Old 01-13-11, 01:34 PM   #13
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pursuit stanridge speed by stanridgespeed bicycles, on Flickr

fillet brazed columbus/nova aero tubing.
Cannot wait to see what the finished product looks like.
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Old 01-13-11, 01:49 PM   #14
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So what is the deal with all of the individuals riding around on Aero Yamaguchi's and especially the Tiermeyer bikes? A ton of those at the Boulder Velodrome.
That's a good question. I assumed you were looking for opinions so I gave you mine.

I would ask the guys that ride them what they think or try one yourself. If you like it, go for it.

Dave
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Old 01-13-11, 04:28 PM   #15
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So what is the deal with all of the individuals riding around on Aero Yamaguchi's and especially the Tiermeyer bikes? A ton of those at the Boulder Velodrome.
one thing that has only barely changed over the last 35 years I've been watching cycling is that people will do things that don't necessarily make much sense, and they will often justify them passionately. It seems to me that the one thing that has remained unchanged over that period is the desire for most of the top track cyclists for stiff frames and robust equipment. Meanwhile, many track riders use bikes that don't meet that description, often successfully.
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Old 01-13-11, 05:03 PM   #16
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That's a good question. I assumed you were looking for opinions so I gave you mine.

I would ask the guys that ride them what they think or try one yourself. If you like it, go for it.

Dave
So if you were to draw out a track frame to someone who was going to need it as a multi-use frame, can you provide you opinion as to the tube set (TT, Columbus, Dedaccia etc...), size of tubes, lugged vs. brazed etc..?

Just curious what you would do to someone who basically walked in blind with only the requirement that it fit, and that it can be used for multiple events.

Thanks in advance.

VT Biker.
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Old 01-13-11, 05:05 PM   #17
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one thing that has only barely changed over the last 35 years I've been watching cycling is that people will do things that don't necessarily make much sense, and they will often justify them passionately. It seems to me that the one thing that has remained unchanged over that period is the desire for most of the top track cyclists for stiff frames and robust equipment. Meanwhile, many track riders use bikes that don't meet that description, often successfully.
So which group is doing stuff that does not make much sense? The Top track cyclists or the ones who do not use the stiff and robust equipment? I cannot tell which group you are critiquing here.
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Old 01-13-11, 06:24 PM   #18
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So if you were to draw out a track frame to someone who was going to need it as a multi-use frame, can you provide you opinion as to the tube set (TT, Columbus, Dedaccia etc...), size of tubes, lugged vs. brazed etc..?

Just curious what you would do to someone who basically walked in blind with only the requirement that it fit, and that it can be used for multiple events.

Thanks in advance.

VT Biker.
If the bike will be used in sprint events (as opposed to the pursuit) then I want it to be pretty darn stiff torsionally and have beefy c-stays to help put the power down. The way I go about this is to pile on the diameter - how big depends on the size and weight of the rider. If you want the bike to be torsionally stiff I feel round tubes are best. You lose a very small amount of performance due to air drag (very very very small) but the bike will go where it's pointed very well and allow the rider to put every watt of power they can muster into the bike. How the pipes are hooked together won't matter much. There's not real difference in stiffness or strength between well executed TIG, fillet or lugged frames.

I would also want the fork to be very stiff laterally. Using round steel track blades and a heavy walled steerer will get the job done. Some carbon forks will be great and others not so much.

I hope that helps.

Dave
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Old 01-14-11, 06:36 PM   #19
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@VT I posted a more complete photo here.. probably not appropriate for me to photo spam this thread.. also my build was purely pulled from my brain and desire to feel how a imagined set of parts will work in harmony. I didn't build it for a strict discipline. Just my vision of what I've always wanted to see. A very very masculine dead sexy purpose built machine for power transfer and going fast around an oval.

It's my first pursuit. Any elders please chime in with comments and ways to improve the design. The Steel BB30 was a pain as the fillets warped it enough to require machining.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post12078799
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