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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 01-21-11, 04:58 AM   #1
bleedingapple
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Stainless lugs ti tubes?

Is it possible? If so how, if not why? Is the special brazing rods available to do it?
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Old 01-21-11, 08:17 AM   #2
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It generally is considered impossible. However, Pino Moroni and Cecil Behringer built some brazed lugged titanium bikes
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Old 01-21-11, 09:07 AM   #3
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Bruce Gordon has done similar things with bonding - that might be the way to go if you wanted to combine these two materials.

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Old 01-21-11, 09:48 AM   #4
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As Morroni proved years ago, it's quite possible to braze Ti. It is very expensive, and in the case of bicycle frames, not at all practical when you add the cost+skill required to do it.

Side note: Morroni was a genius of fabrication and design. I have one of his frame jigs and the more I use it, the more I find little details that show how well thought out it is.
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Old 01-21-11, 10:08 AM   #5
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Pino Moroni was a genius. The machine work of his that I saw was just amazing. He came to Trek when I was there and showed us his jig. I don't know if he wanted too much money or what, but they tried to copy it instead of buying one from him. It was a little fiddly, so they may have been worried about it holding up at production rates. He was a great guy to talk to, I saw him at Super Week after that, and he was giving a lecture right there on the starting line.

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Bruce Gordon has done similar things with bonding - that might be the way to go if you wanted to combine these two materials.

dave
IIRC, somebody asked him how much time/cost he had in that frame and the answer was that it was so much he didn't know and he wouldn't build another. At one time (in the '70s) brazing titanium seemed like the holy grail to me and now tig welding has basically made the whole process moot. To get lugs with enough area for a sufficient bond, they would have to be tig welded. At that point, the frame might as well be tig welded and skip the lugs. Just speaking for myself, I would rather have an XCR frame if I was going to have a lugged bike.

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Old 01-21-11, 10:20 AM   #6
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It generally is considered impossible. However, Pino Moroni and Cecil Behringer built some brazed lugged titanium bikes
Yes, but Pino made special Ti lugs for the bike. Campy forged Ti dropouts as well; these were used both by Pino and by Speedwell for their welded Ti bike.
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Old 01-21-11, 10:32 AM   #7
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it seems to me that the trick is getting the silver to bond to the ti, once you get past that, you should be able to bond to dissimilar metals. I can guarantee I'm not thinking it through. I actually saw a Teledyne that had a silver brazed repair of a broken seat stay, so it clearly isn't impossible. The wisdom of the whole enterprise is a different matter.
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Old 01-21-11, 07:02 PM   #8
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whats an XCR frame? I was just wondering seeing as I dont know how nor have the equipment for TIG. Sound like i would need to be a master brazer to work with Ti so I guess thats out. I was just looking to build a light strong and rust resistant bike. IIRC the new stainless steels are pretty much designed for TIG or have sub 180lbs weight limits on them...
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Old 01-22-11, 06:01 PM   #9
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Live Wire. Jig Pics please.
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Old 01-22-11, 08:16 PM   #10
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whats an XCR frame? I was just wondering seeing as I dont know how nor have the equipment for TIG. Sound like i would need to be a master brazer to work with Ti so I guess thats out. I was just looking to build a light strong and rust resistant bike. IIRC the new stainless steels are pretty much designed for TIG or have sub 180lbs weight limits on them...
XCr is Columbus seamless stainless steel tubing, and a number of builders are making brazed lugged frames with it and with the Reynolds 953 stainless steel tubeset. I believe you're misinformed about there being a 180 pound weight limit; I weigh 200 pounds and have ridden my Reynolds 953 lugged Waterford RS-22 for four years. It's light, strong, and corrosion resistant.
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Old 01-22-11, 09:36 PM   #11
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I think that what they found necessary for the brazing of Ti was that it had to happen in a completely inert environment. Speculating here but perhaps the early successes had something to do with a very thourough and complete, joint localized purging process.
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Old 01-22-11, 10:52 PM   #12
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Live Wire. Jig Pics please.
My jig is currently in pieces, but here's a pic of the only other one like it in the shop of master builder Dave Porter.


There are a bunch more here http://porterbikes.com/
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Old 01-25-11, 04:40 PM   #13
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take a execution idea off the AlAns in the 80's , screwed and glued .
they machined threads like Plumber's Pipe , tapered and naturally, R/H on one end and L/H
on the other . so turning the tube pulled it into the threaded lugs. and the epoxy held it together

had one of the head lugs crack on My AlAn, repair was quoted as pretty cheap,
in Italy ..
getting it to Italy from the Pacific coast was not.
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