Help me brainstorm tire clearance solution
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Help me brainstorm tire clearance solution
Perhaps this is a no-brainer for most of you, but I am new to this, so help me out!
I am designing my second frame, a commuter/tourer/cross country bike, with the following desired characteristics:
1) 450mm chainstays
2) 80mm drop
3) room for 2" tires and fenders on 700c wheels
4) a plate for a kickstand mount
4) Conforming to the following lugset and bottom bracket angles that I have:
https://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...L-SOCKETS.html
https://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...E-SOCKETS.html
As you can see, these have are standard road angles. The angle between the chainstays is ~7 degrees or so. I've got a frame drawn up that fits all the angles perfectly, EXCEPT the tire clearance.
Even with 450mm chainstays there is not enough room. So obviously I need to run bent chainstays, right? But this shell needs 22mm round stays, and as I see it I would need to put two bends relatively close together since I can't really change the angle of these chainstay sockets (i.e. an outward bend close to the socket followed by an inward bend further back.)
So option number 1 would be to get some plain round chainstays and bend em, but I don't think I will be able to put these bends in so close together without deforming the stays quite a bit and weakening them?
I considered grinding off the sockets on the BB shell and brazing on essentially a piece of angle iron, then brazing single bend round chainstays (which are available to buy) to that. The angle iron could serve as a kickstand plate as well (pardon my MS paint mockup):
How about Jimmy rigging some kind of other flat plate solution like this (except on both stays):
Or cutting a piece of 4 inch steel pipe and making something like this (except instead of the oval monostay I would have two very short round stays going to it):
Or something I haven't thought of?
Thanks!!!!
I am designing my second frame, a commuter/tourer/cross country bike, with the following desired characteristics:
1) 450mm chainstays
2) 80mm drop
3) room for 2" tires and fenders on 700c wheels
4) a plate for a kickstand mount
4) Conforming to the following lugset and bottom bracket angles that I have:
https://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...L-SOCKETS.html
https://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...E-SOCKETS.html
As you can see, these have are standard road angles. The angle between the chainstays is ~7 degrees or so. I've got a frame drawn up that fits all the angles perfectly, EXCEPT the tire clearance.
Even with 450mm chainstays there is not enough room. So obviously I need to run bent chainstays, right? But this shell needs 22mm round stays, and as I see it I would need to put two bends relatively close together since I can't really change the angle of these chainstay sockets (i.e. an outward bend close to the socket followed by an inward bend further back.)
So option number 1 would be to get some plain round chainstays and bend em, but I don't think I will be able to put these bends in so close together without deforming the stays quite a bit and weakening them?
I considered grinding off the sockets on the BB shell and brazing on essentially a piece of angle iron, then brazing single bend round chainstays (which are available to buy) to that. The angle iron could serve as a kickstand plate as well (pardon my MS paint mockup):
How about Jimmy rigging some kind of other flat plate solution like this (except on both stays):
Or cutting a piece of 4 inch steel pipe and making something like this (except instead of the oval monostay I would have two very short round stays going to it):
Or something I haven't thought of?
Thanks!!!!
#3
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
I always wondered who they were going to sell those lugs to. If you are getting them because you think it is easier to braze them, I don't think you will find that to be the case.
Nova has a standard MTB BB shell that will probably work better angle-wise. But they also sell s-bend stays that will fit in a standard bb shell that I think will probably give you enough space. Of course, you need to go with an oval bb socket. Those fairly radical solutions you show above are for 29er frames with much larger tires than you propose and very tight clearance with the frame. Not sure you need that. You can also go with a 7/8 tube and get it bent in an s bend
Nova has a standard MTB BB shell that will probably work better angle-wise. But they also sell s-bend stays that will fit in a standard bb shell that I think will probably give you enough space. Of course, you need to go with an oval bb socket. Those fairly radical solutions you show above are for 29er frames with much larger tires than you propose and very tight clearance with the frame. Not sure you need that. You can also go with a 7/8 tube and get it bent in an s bend
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: vermont
Posts: 3,081
Bikes: Many
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
10 Posts
Ditch the lugs and make your own. 29X2.5 on 17" chainstay/standard MTB rings.
29 277 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 310 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 277 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 310 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks guys for the thoughts. As to the lugset, I chose it b/c I like the look but am not confident yet in my ability to do a good fillet braze. Ditto for the bottom bracket, although if you want to come over and weld that up for me ftwelder it looks like exactly what I need! :
I did mess around with the angles of that MTB BB they have at Nova in rattleCAD but I can't get anywhere close to the drop I am looking for with that 67 degree ST-CS angle. Even getting an 80mm drop on the road BB is going to require about 2 degrees of massaging.
Time to expand my brazing skills I guess.
I did mess around with the angles of that MTB BB they have at Nova in rattleCAD but I can't get anywhere close to the drop I am looking for with that 67 degree ST-CS angle. Even getting an 80mm drop on the road BB is going to require about 2 degrees of massaging.
Time to expand my brazing skills I guess.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: vermont
Posts: 3,081
Bikes: Many
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
10 Posts
Thanks guys for the thoughts. As to the lugset, I chose it b/c I like the look but am not confident yet in my ability to do a good fillet braze. Ditto for the bottom bracket, although if you want to come over and weld that up for me ftwelder it looks like exactly what I need! :
I did mess around with the angles of that MTB BB they have at Nova in rattleCAD but I can't get anywhere close to the drop I am looking for with that 67 degree ST-CS angle. Even getting an 80mm drop on the road BB is going to require about 2 degrees of massaging.
Time to expand my brazing skills I guess.
I did mess around with the angles of that MTB BB they have at Nova in rattleCAD but I can't get anywhere close to the drop I am looking for with that 67 degree ST-CS angle. Even getting an 80mm drop on the road BB is going to require about 2 degrees of massaging.
Time to expand my brazing skills I guess.
#7
Elitest Murray Owner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,657
Bikes: 1972 Columbia Tourist Expert III, Columbia Roadster
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
How about instead of having two separate stays welded to a flat bridge, you just use one really long stay bent into a U shape?
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: vermont
Posts: 3,081
Bikes: Many
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
10 Posts
When tube is bent, the wall gets very thin on the outside of the bend. We did Yeti's that way "back in the day" and I had to fix a lot of them with gussets. thick tubing is fine but the real issue would be finding someone with the correct bend radi.
depending on where you look..
depending on where you look..
#9
Elitest Murray Owner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,657
Bikes: 1972 Columbia Tourist Expert III, Columbia Roadster
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
Maybe something like the old fashioned Raleigh crown would work:
I'm not sure if it is, but from some reason attaching chain stays to a flat piece of bar just seems wrong to me. 0:
I'm not sure if it is, but from some reason attaching chain stays to a flat piece of bar just seems wrong to me. 0:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
commuter/tourer/cross country bike
Does CC mean like cycling coast to coast, or across the dessert or mud flats? Cause you don't need anything more than 1.5 tires for what you have on the list in the first case. I respect your desire to do this, but it may be a little much.
Does CC mean like cycling coast to coast, or across the dessert or mud flats? Cause you don't need anything more than 1.5 tires for what you have on the list in the first case. I respect your desire to do this, but it may be a little much.
#13
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#14
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
curious what 50mm/2" tire you want to use for this purpose? That definitely will take some MTB-like bent chainstays. I really like the Continental Top Contact Winter which I run on my commuter, but that is a 26" bike. I'm scheming to build a new frame around those tires, it is going to be more like a mtb. Currently, I am using a Trek MTB frame.
#15
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
commuter/tourer/cross country bike
Does CC mean like cycling coast to coast, or across the dessert or mud flats? Cause you don't need anything more than 1.5 tires for what you have on the list in the first case. I respect your desire to do this, but it may be a little much.
Does CC mean like cycling coast to coast, or across the dessert or mud flats? Cause you don't need anything more than 1.5 tires for what you have on the list in the first case. I respect your desire to do this, but it may be a little much.
Incidentally, I stumbled across this bike by Hunter Cycles a few days ago which is almost exactly what I was thinking of from a functional standpoint (minus the fancy curved tubes):
Very similar chainstay solution to what's pictured above.
#16
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
curious what 50mm/2" tire you want to use for this purpose? That definitely will take some MTB-like bent chainstays. I really like the Continental Top Contact Winter which I run on my commuter, but that is a 26" bike. I'm scheming to build a new frame around those tires, it is going to be more like a mtb. Currently, I am using a Trek MTB frame.
Front end wise, I'm planning on using this crown from ceeway which can fit 68.7mm/2.7inch tires:
#17
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
what you want to build is generally called a "monster cross." I like the idea, most likely you will have to figure out how to bend tubing.
#18
Framebuilder
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
[QUOTE=jharley;14240803]I'd like to be able to use anything from 29x1.5 slicks up to 29 x 2.5 knobbies if I could figure out how to fit them.
]
In that case, the fork in your drawing is at least 25mm too short. I think you'll find that when you redraw it, the dt/ht angle will be too far off to work right with those lugs.
]
In that case, the fork in your drawing is at least 25mm too short. I think you'll find that when you redraw it, the dt/ht angle will be too far off to work right with those lugs.
#19
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Live Wire;14241090]
Goddamnitttttt! You are totally right.
I'd like to be able to use anything from 29x1.5 slicks up to 29 x 2.5 knobbies if I could figure out how to fit them.
]
In that case, the fork in your drawing is at least 25mm too short. I think you'll find that when you redraw it, the dt/ht angle will be too far off to work right with those lugs.
]
In that case, the fork in your drawing is at least 25mm too short. I think you'll find that when you redraw it, the dt/ht angle will be too far off to work right with those lugs.
Last edited by unterhausen; 05-18-12 at 12:00 PM. Reason: nvm
#20
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
fillet is the way to go with anything out of the ordinary anyway. Start practicing
#21
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Anyway, fun conversation, really appreciate the input!
#22
Framebuilder
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
FWIW, I would try to stay with the 80mm if possible...it's perfect for the type of bike you're building.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,866
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1854 Post(s)
Liked 661 Times
in
504 Posts
Ditch the lugs and make your own. 29X2.5 on 17" chainstay/standard MTB rings.
29 277 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 310 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 277 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
29 310 by frankthewelder, on Flickr
I know it would not work for me with any Campy or modern Sugino or Sakae cranks. ISO BBs I've found will not deliver the crankarm clearance - Campy just didn't design for a MTB-width frame, in any commonly available components. If I could get a wide-enough ISO BB to make the chainline, I'd have huge Q with a Racing T, and with the widest 115.5 BB, I don't get decent chainline or any crankarm clearance. The TA/Stronglight 49/vintage Avocet style, with straight crankarms, is much better for achieving clearances and alighnment.
I think Mike built up his own BB from steel sheet. They exit the BB shell at quite an angle, similar to Frank's.
Terraferma used a large-ish tube and no dimpling. It's his choice on all his frames. He says it's part of the great pedaling performance. My bike is not finished yet, so I can't say how it rides yet.
Last edited by Road Fan; 05-26-12 at 10:51 PM.