DAVIDPP

I never build a frame. This will be my projet for winter. I'm from Quebec so I would love to build a bike with those fleur de lys lugs. I started to read the book: Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction, A Manual for the First Time Builder: Expanded Second Edition and he recommend using straight plain simple lug for the first time builder. I remember read somewhere in the book that he does not recommend using fancy lug such as the fleur de lys. If I remember correctly I think it's because it will be too much work after to clean the edge of the lug after brazing the tubes and lugs and we'll need something like a scratch awl to clean it. I'm not too sure I'll need to re-read the book to find where. What your opinion about this? Could we use rotary tool( dremel) with a bit that will do the same as a scratch awl? I can pictuer myself beeing hurt using the scratch awl.

veryredbike

I'd suggest against it.

1) tubes are too easy to mess up with the dremel. Save rotary tools for work over lugs.
2) Those fancy outlines are really better for folks with more time under their belt that have to do a lot less cleanup than us newbs. I just finished my first frame (and most of the 2nd). I can tell you, it's harder than you think when you start. You do not need extra challenges.
3) I'd make sure to have some other learning materials on hand. That book has some nice info for beginners but it's not nearly enough.

unterhausen

face it, they are ugly and yet overdone.

I feel fairly confident in saying that you will overheat the thin sections and wish you had just gotten plain lugs. Don't plan on just making one frame. Buy a couple of extra hacksaw blades with each tubeset and cut them up after you ride them for 3 months. Then when you know your abilities well enough to feel confident, get the fleur de lys lugs if you still want them.

Andrew R Stewart 

Davidpp- Have you tried to braze anything together yet? You could get a bunch of practice on both your brazing as well as clean up skills by making some sleeves of varing fanciness. You can source tubing of, say, 1" diameter and also 1.125" diameter with .058" walls. The 1" tube will slide inside of the 1.125" with just about the perfect clearance for brazing. By cutting or drilling the 1.125 "lug" tube along it's edge you can create a fancy lug edge of sorts. Now braze the sleeve onto the 1" tube and clean it up to your liking. After cut the results open on a few different planes to check your fill rate. Do the same but with a simple "lug" edge and see what works out better. Repeate untill you have some sense of your comfort levels. Only then would I suggest that you're ready to start a frame of any lug style. And then you get to start learning the rest of the skill set that building a frame needs. Andy.

MassiveD

One way to mop up the ooze is to use a fine wire brush in flux to lift it off.

MassiveD

I basically agree with you, I feel that way with pretty much all common lug motifs.

That said, in this case it is sorta like saying eagles and stars are played out, if you know the Quebec flag...

Doug Fattic 

What Andy said +:

DAVIDPP, I've been a framebuilding class teacher for many years. One of the primary mistakes beginners make is trying to do too much with their 1st frame. The problem is that when things don't go well, they get discouraged and want to quit. The solution is selecting materials, methods and procedures that fit within their abilities. This means not selecting thin heat treated tubing (that can't be aligned easily after poor brazing), not altering lug angles (making it more difficult to braze – especially the shorelines) and using uncomplicated lugs. For example Henry James lugs are easier to braze because they don't have so much real estate to cover.


The test of whether you can use your fleur des lys lugs is if you can end up with clean shore lines when you braze. This is a skill not everyone catches on to right away. It takes more instruction and correct torch/flame motion to get it right. When you can braze a test lug with the result that the silver is completely everywhere inside (within its melting temperature range) and none outside, you are qualified to use fancier lugs. If you have to be working on the shorelines after brazing you aren't ready yet. Fussing with the shorelines with tools after brazing is a good indicator they are not a good brazer. By the way you probably know this already but just in case, Long Shen makes fleur des lys lugs that Nova Cycle Supply sells.


It wouldn't be a problem to use a fleur des lys lug in my class if your frame design fit their angles. Almost everyone with decent hand coordination can get clean shorelines without the need to scrape or file afterwards if they listen to instructions and practice. I've had several students cut a more complicated design out of blank lugs and everything turned out alright.

erik c

unrelated to your choice of lugs.
Please for the sake of your teeth toss that damn book and either download the older edition of Paterek for free or pony up for the more recent edition or even the DVD's (which aren't perfect either but are a start of sorts)
Here's my "expert" (I'm not really) tip if somebody recomends a fuel air torch for building bikes they likely don't know what the hell they are talking about

unterhausen

wouldn't be a real fan of lugs with eagles or stars at their tips either. I see nothing wrong with nationalistic symbols on a bike, but they belong on decals. Fleur de lys cutouts might be nice.

Andrew R Stewart 

Doug- Not to side track this thread but I've finally started the frame that the S&S couplers I was playing with, last time I visited your shop. The small scalopping of their points is the theme i'm going with elsewhere. Andy.

JohnDThompson 

Or a "solder wick" (essentially a braided steel cable soaked in flux).

DAVIDPP

Thanks guys. I'm going to get plain and simple lugs for my first build. I just downloaded the Paterek manuel looks interesting, I'm going to hijack the office printer sometime this week. I'll see you in another post on fuel air torch I guess., (unless I find an answer in Paterek)

unterhausen

there are plenty of threads that discuss using air/propane torches. Executive summary: you are handicapping yourself but it can be done.

DAVIDPP

this is pretty much what I was thinking.

unterhausen

actually, I mis-posted. Nobody uses propane, they use whatever it is they replaced MAPP with in the yellow bottles
propane works fine with oxygen

MassiveD

I went back to propane after Mapp. MAPP/air seemed fabulous over propane when I first tried it, but later I found I didn't like it as much.

Propane/air is OK for small stuff, like racks. It can also be used to do a hearth type thing, but unless like me you already own that kind of burner, it would cost about the same to get set up. And then skipping a beat, remember that guy who came at us with the compressed air propane torch question and we all thought he was nuts, but he was right about it existing anyway. (I think it was compressed air, propane, and not compressed air some other fuel).

Overall, particularly when it comes to doing fancy stuff with points, it probably pays to go oxy fuel. You can move the heat around a lot more easily.

MassiveD

I see nothing wrong with the nationalist part of it, if that is how one rolls. I just find the symbols so 2 centuries ago. I wonder if Bauhaus did lugs...

Doug Fattic 

One thing you might want to consider is cutting a fleur-de-lys into the top portion of the down tube lug. A Henry James lug is a little small to do this but other lugs might have enough real estate to make that work. In the 70's, it was popular to put an identifying symbol in that location. Colnago of course had clubs (like in playing cards) and Confente had a spade. Hearts have been poplar with many builders. When I as making my first frame while I was apprenticing in England in '75, I choose to do a fleur-de-lys cutout. Actually this is a really difficult design to get right. A slight change in curve or length can really effect what it looks like. My suggestion – if you decide to create your own design – is to create the design several times bigger than actual size. This allows you to change the proportions with a lot greater accuracy and comfort. Then reduce it down to real size on a copy machine.