Propane/oxy temps
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Propane/oxy temps
I didn't know this, here's the relative temps:
Pure oxygen, instead of air (20% oxygen/80% nitrogen), is used to increase the flame temperature to allow localized melting of the workpiece material (e.g. steel) in a room environment. A common propane/air flame burns at about 3,630 °F (2,000 °C), a propane/oxygen flame burns at about 4,530 °F (2,500 °C), and an acetylene/oxygen flame burns at about 6,330 °F (3,500 °C).
There was a previous discussion on propane use. If anyone has further experience please share the info. Heating time relative to oxy, etc., etc. Santa Barbara Iron and Metal(scrap/recycler) uses only propane for their cutting torches as it saves them a lot of $, according to the owner.
thanks, Brian
Pure oxygen, instead of air (20% oxygen/80% nitrogen), is used to increase the flame temperature to allow localized melting of the workpiece material (e.g. steel) in a room environment. A common propane/air flame burns at about 3,630 °F (2,000 °C), a propane/oxygen flame burns at about 4,530 °F (2,500 °C), and an acetylene/oxygen flame burns at about 6,330 °F (3,500 °C).
There was a previous discussion on propane use. If anyone has further experience please share the info. Heating time relative to oxy, etc., etc. Santa Barbara Iron and Metal(scrap/recycler) uses only propane for their cutting torches as it saves them a lot of $, according to the owner.
thanks, Brian
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Last edited by calstar; 12-01-12 at 12:49 AM.
#2
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
Oxy / propane is what we use for brazing frames... it gets more than hot enough to cook your work and if you are running propane through tips designed for acetylene you will want to run a larger tip for brazing.
My rig has a #4 Victor welding tip on a 315FC and will heat areas to brazing temperatures in a few seconds and provides a very concentrated flame... heating larger areas rates a 5.
Advantage of propane over acetylene is it's lower cost, availability, and moving propane does not come with the issues you get with acetylene... you will use more oxygen with propane but this is still cheaper than running acetylene.
My rig has a #4 Victor welding tip on a 315FC and will heat areas to brazing temperatures in a few seconds and provides a very concentrated flame... heating larger areas rates a 5.
Advantage of propane over acetylene is it's lower cost, availability, and moving propane does not come with the issues you get with acetylene... you will use more oxygen with propane but this is still cheaper than running acetylene.
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Here's a fairly inexpensvie regulator. I've decided to give myself a birthday present(Dec 16) and order this. Since I have 5 nearly full bbq size propane tanks(I guess I haven't been bbq'ing that much the last few years) that will reduce my initial fuel costs for awhile. I'm finally getting my work space together, been brazing a little, reteaching my self stick welding for fabricating stands and tools. I hope to start on a frame after the first of the year.
thanks for the info Sixty Fiver,
Brian
Smith Propane (LP) Regulator - 30 Series Medium Duty
Mfg Industrial Price: $152.00Cyberweld Price: $81.10
Gas: LP/Propane/Propylene/Natural Gas (CGA 510)
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[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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thanks for the info Sixty Fiver,
Brian
Smith Propane (LP) Regulator - 30 Series Medium Duty
Mfg Industrial Price: $152.00Cyberweld Price: $81.10
Gas: LP/Propane/Propylene/Natural Gas (CGA 510)
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
__________________
Brian
Brian
#4
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
Or... you could re-purpose a BBQ regulator.
Propane is not as sensitive as acetylene is when it comes to pressure which you can fine tune at the torch.
I need to spend some time with a MIG welder myself... I would be remiss if I did not build my own fixtures.
I have been working with a master frame builder for several years and am now tooling up my own shop space... nice that I can still access the main shop as I have grown quite fond of having a lathe at hand.
One thing to note that probbaly is not an issue in sunny California... propane can be problematic if you are working in colder temperatures as it can freeze off.
We keep a blanket on our propane that feeds our powder coater so this does not happen.
Propane is not as sensitive as acetylene is when it comes to pressure which you can fine tune at the torch.
I need to spend some time with a MIG welder myself... I would be remiss if I did not build my own fixtures.
I have been working with a master frame builder for several years and am now tooling up my own shop space... nice that I can still access the main shop as I have grown quite fond of having a lathe at hand.
One thing to note that probbaly is not an issue in sunny California... propane can be problematic if you are working in colder temperatures as it can freeze off.
We keep a blanket on our propane that feeds our powder coater so this does not happen.
Last edited by Sixty Fiver; 12-01-12 at 01:10 AM.
#5
Banned
I used a Rosebud tip to braze up a fork crown ..a borrowed one..
normal use.. Melt brass, and bronze, gold and silver, for lost wax jewelry spin casting.
normal use.. Melt brass, and bronze, gold and silver, for lost wax jewelry spin casting.
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I read a while ago that while propane/oxygen burns at a lower temp then A/O does it has a higher specific heat/energy (I hope that I've got the term correct). Something about the temp density in the flame and that A/O drops off rapidly but P/O has more energy further away from the tip. Andy.
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I'll consider one of these, although I'm still leaning towards the Smith. To me, knowing the tank pressure, while not necessary, as well as outlet pressure seems worth the extra $. That and the convenience of setting the outlet pressure with a dial gauge, more like plug and play. OTOH the $60 saved could buy some other needed items.
Brian
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Last edited by calstar; 12-01-12 at 12:00 PM.
#8
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
Is that what you do? Here's an adjustable bbq regulator for $22: https://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-...ef=pd_sim_lg_6
I'll consider one of these, although I'm still leaning towards the Smith. To me, knowing the tank pressure, while not necessary, as well as outlet pressure seems worth the extra $. That and the convenience of setting the outlet pressure with a dial gauge, more like plug and play. OTOH the $60 saved could buy some other needed items.
Brian
I'll consider one of these, although I'm still leaning towards the Smith. To me, knowing the tank pressure, while not necessary, as well as outlet pressure seems worth the extra $. That and the convenience of setting the outlet pressure with a dial gauge, more like plug and play. OTOH the $60 saved could buy some other needed items.
Brian
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Oxy-propane is fine for brazing; it's what we used at Trek, because it allowed us to use a manifold system to supply fuel to the brazing stations (propane can be run at higher pressures than acetylene, which is needed in a manifold), saving a lot of money over individual tank setups. Oxy-propane is often preferred for flame-cutting thick steel plate for the same reason: the higher pressure can push the flame through thicker material.
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Searching for connectors for a 20lb propane bottle to a fuel gas torch I found the site below. I believe the #1685 is the correct one for my intended use but I'll check with my local welding supply guy(closed today), any of you know?
What does the POL stand for, point of ????
https://www.flameengineering.com/Cyli...onnectors.html
P-1685
Standard P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This standard P.O.L. connector threads into nearly all propane/butane cylinders to connect to regulators, hoses and other fittings. This is a straight through flow design - No excess flow safety device installed in this P.O.L. Not for use with gas grills and other low pressure devices.
U.L. Listed.
Price: $7.90
ADD TO CART
[HR][/HR]P-3200 W
Excess Flow P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This soft-nose P.O.L. connector incorporates an excess flow safety device and hex nut for positive tightening. Has a flow rate of 1.8 gallons per minute.Use to connect LP-Cylinders to regulators, hoses and other fittings. Not for use with gas grills and other low pressure devices.
U.L. Listed.
Price: $13.90
ADD TO CART
[HR][/HR]P-W 795
Hand-tighten Excess Flow P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This soft-nose P.O.L. connector incorporates an excess flow safety device and hand-wheel for easy, positive tightening. Has a flow rate of 1.8 gallons per minute. Use to connect LP-Cylinders to regulators, hoses and other fittings. Great for use with torches
What does the POL stand for, point of ????
https://www.flameengineering.com/Cyli...onnectors.html
P-1685
Standard P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This standard P.O.L. connector threads into nearly all propane/butane cylinders to connect to regulators, hoses and other fittings. This is a straight through flow design - No excess flow safety device installed in this P.O.L. Not for use with gas grills and other low pressure devices.
U.L. Listed.
Price: $7.90
ADD TO CART
[HR][/HR]P-3200 W
Excess Flow P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This soft-nose P.O.L. connector incorporates an excess flow safety device and hex nut for positive tightening. Has a flow rate of 1.8 gallons per minute.Use to connect LP-Cylinders to regulators, hoses and other fittings. Not for use with gas grills and other low pressure devices.
U.L. Listed.
Price: $13.90
ADD TO CART
[HR][/HR]P-W 795
Hand-tighten Excess Flow P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET
This soft-nose P.O.L. connector incorporates an excess flow safety device and hand-wheel for easy, positive tightening. Has a flow rate of 1.8 gallons per minute. Use to connect LP-Cylinders to regulators, hoses and other fittings. Great for use with torches
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Last edited by calstar; 12-01-12 at 03:05 PM.
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I thought the whole point of cutting torches is that when they shift to cutting they run oxygen only. There must be some reason for what you say, as even cheapo welding supplies that would never dabble in the arcana of propane welding or brazing always have propane cutting gear...
I have even welded with propane oxy, it works for our size stuff. I think accet, is virtually impossible for me to transport legally, and has no business in a domestic setting, or probably most light industrial settings. It needs it's whole own series of 1000 ways to die.
I just use a cheapo regulator, it is the red one they sell for those ice or weed burner heads.
As far as plug and play goes:
from Tinaman
"Setting Your Torch
I know that setting a torch properly may be difficult with all the pressure requirements and tip sizes, thicknesses and different metals, but here is the standard method used in the American Aircraft Factories for oxy-acetylene welding of aluminum sheet.
Select torch tip size for the metal thickness you are working with.
Bottles are closed. Regulators are closed - with the screws wound out. Torch is open and ready to flow, 3 to 4 turns on both knobs. (this needs to be checked with your torch, you do not want to unpack the valves, but 3-4 turns on a TM torch is pretty wide open)
Open oxy bottle first...all the way until the upper packing seats. Now, just crack the acetylene bottle until gauge goes up, then add 1/4 turn. Hold torch an inch from your cheek and wind in the acetylene regulator screw until a little breeze is felt on your cheek. Now light the torch - AWAY from your cheek please.
You should now have a bushy yellow flame that emits NO sooty trails. Add oxygen with regulator screw until flame is balanced neutral, then add both gasses until your flame is loud, and neutral.
You now have the best wide-open flame setting for the tip you have chosen.
NOW you can adjust the torch down to the flame you need for the work. The pressures are also correct for that tip size - and you never needed to see the gauges except for the acetylene bottle on startup."
Apparently when done this way you have all the things that need to be full open open, all the flows at the part of the gear they are supposed to be at. and you have a torch that probably won't pop, that can be lit by opening both torch valves equal amounts and sparking her off, and your pressures are OK, etc.... And you don't care what the dials read, because they aren't being used. Some of the safety side of this applies mainly to that sneaky A/O combo. But I tried it, and it works with propane.
These are good regulators if you want to go fancy:
https://www.tinmantech.com/html/hose_regs.php#pro
I have even welded with propane oxy, it works for our size stuff. I think accet, is virtually impossible for me to transport legally, and has no business in a domestic setting, or probably most light industrial settings. It needs it's whole own series of 1000 ways to die.
I just use a cheapo regulator, it is the red one they sell for those ice or weed burner heads.
As far as plug and play goes:
from Tinaman
"Setting Your Torch
I know that setting a torch properly may be difficult with all the pressure requirements and tip sizes, thicknesses and different metals, but here is the standard method used in the American Aircraft Factories for oxy-acetylene welding of aluminum sheet.
Select torch tip size for the metal thickness you are working with.
Bottles are closed. Regulators are closed - with the screws wound out. Torch is open and ready to flow, 3 to 4 turns on both knobs. (this needs to be checked with your torch, you do not want to unpack the valves, but 3-4 turns on a TM torch is pretty wide open)
Open oxy bottle first...all the way until the upper packing seats. Now, just crack the acetylene bottle until gauge goes up, then add 1/4 turn. Hold torch an inch from your cheek and wind in the acetylene regulator screw until a little breeze is felt on your cheek. Now light the torch - AWAY from your cheek please.
You should now have a bushy yellow flame that emits NO sooty trails. Add oxygen with regulator screw until flame is balanced neutral, then add both gasses until your flame is loud, and neutral.
You now have the best wide-open flame setting for the tip you have chosen.
NOW you can adjust the torch down to the flame you need for the work. The pressures are also correct for that tip size - and you never needed to see the gauges except for the acetylene bottle on startup."
Apparently when done this way you have all the things that need to be full open open, all the flows at the part of the gear they are supposed to be at. and you have a torch that probably won't pop, that can be lit by opening both torch valves equal amounts and sparking her off, and your pressures are OK, etc.... And you don't care what the dials read, because they aren't being used. Some of the safety side of this applies mainly to that sneaky A/O combo. But I tried it, and it works with propane.
These are good regulators if you want to go fancy:
https://www.tinmantech.com/html/hose_regs.php#pro
#13
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These are attached to any regulator you get, or should be. I don't think you need one.
Even that POS regulator you listed has this part. I use a POS regulator for propane, and have the fancy ones for my other gasses.
In theory, POS regulators will drop flow for no reason as you run them, but if you are running by feel, and if you are not running all day long, this does not seem to be a problem.
Propane will rot your hoses and other non-popane fittings. The guy I got my stuff from told me they would "only" last 5 years. If you don't use the system for long periods, you might want to flush the propane hose.
Even that POS regulator you listed has this part. I use a POS regulator for propane, and have the fancy ones for my other gasses.
In theory, POS regulators will drop flow for no reason as you run them, but if you are running by feel, and if you are not running all day long, this does not seem to be a problem.
Propane will rot your hoses and other non-popane fittings. The guy I got my stuff from told me they would "only" last 5 years. If you don't use the system for long periods, you might want to flush the propane hose.
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You want to plumb your system from the torch. That is usually where it gets tricky. You buy the torch, some ultralight hoses, flash arrestors, stub hose, and any of the other stuff. Get your torch and Lt hose online, but the rest may be better from a welding supply, because they can make hoses to measure, and they can attach compatible fitting, eliminating the need for kludgy adaptor.
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From Tinaman:
One of the main safety rules of using oxy is to NEVER open the oxy all the way without first cracking it open just a bit. If there is pressure left in the regulator(from previous incorrect shut down) the operator may encounter compressive heat build-up(heat of recompression) and if there is a speck of dirt/oil inside, kaboom, regulator burnout! This happens, google RGO(regulater burn out) or search OSHA for the same. If cracked slowly first the size of the explosion/fire can most likely be controlled/extinguished. Although Tinaman instructions may presume this condition does not exist the instructions do not state so.
All A/O safety courses stress this. Here is an explanation of this(although there on many more on the net) from the most convenient site for me to post, start at 1:10 minutes into it if you want to skip the introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOYQEg9SXoA
I'm not close to being an expert in this field, but this is a basic step in operation, just passing on on the info, probably all of you know this already. BTW, without gauges operators have only the screws to check, with gauges they have two safety checks (but then again "nothing is idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious"-Tubal Cain). When someone uses A/O they must have suicidal tendencies if they don't have gauges,
cheers,
Brian
Open oxy bottle first...all the way until the upper packing seats.
One of the main safety rules of using oxy is to NEVER open the oxy all the way without first cracking it open just a bit. If there is pressure left in the regulator(from previous incorrect shut down) the operator may encounter compressive heat build-up(heat of recompression) and if there is a speck of dirt/oil inside, kaboom, regulator burnout! This happens, google RGO(regulater burn out) or search OSHA for the same. If cracked slowly first the size of the explosion/fire can most likely be controlled/extinguished. Although Tinaman instructions may presume this condition does not exist the instructions do not state so.
All A/O safety courses stress this. Here is an explanation of this(although there on many more on the net) from the most convenient site for me to post, start at 1:10 minutes into it if you want to skip the introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOYQEg9SXoA
I'm not close to being an expert in this field, but this is a basic step in operation, just passing on on the info, probably all of you know this already. BTW, without gauges operators have only the screws to check, with gauges they have two safety checks (but then again "nothing is idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious"-Tubal Cain). When someone uses A/O they must have suicidal tendencies if they don't have gauges,
cheers,
Brian
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Last edited by calstar; 12-03-12 at 10:24 AM.
#16
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The regulator you linked will screw directly to a BBQ propane tank without an adaptor.
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I have even welded with propane oxy, it works for our size stuff. I think accet, is virtually impossible for me to transport legally, and has no business in a domestic setting, or probably most light industrial settings. It needs it's whole own series of 1000 ways to die.
#18
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
There was a propane leak at one of the many large tanks they had on site and over the day it filled and crept through the site until it hit the mess hall and met the flames one of the cooking stoves... he saved a piece of the helicopter as a memento as it was also blown to bits along with the camp.
...
It is all dangerous stuff and safety precautions are key... I would much rather deal with propane than acetylene in my little shop as filling my propane can be done when I go top up the petrol in the car and my oxygen tank is a smaller 40 which I can move and transport easily for filling.
We run larger tanks out at the main shop since it is a ways out and have a van to transport the larger O2.
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I work out of a main floor shop, there isn't anywhere for a blivet of gas to collect. I have a big pickup, but one can't put these flamable gasses in the cabin of the vehicle, by law, around here. You can't lay it on it's side in the box, and to mount it vertical I would need a special rig for carrying it. Actually, I am probably moving to a smaller bottle, and they could be safely strapped into the box vertical with the toneau cover pulled back.
I was talking to the guy at the gas company. He said that in their training they are taught how to deal with a fire inside the Acet cylinder. Apparently you can tell because the casing glows red hot. You turn a fire hose on it and keep it on it until it cools back down, apparently like half an hour later. The guy said, as far as he was concerned, if he ever saw an Acet cylinder glowing read hot, he was going to jump in his car and gun it for the far side of town...
Here is the first fact check story I came across. Yeah, I bet it "relieved" the pressure...
https://www2.vanuatuships.com/content/view/118/2/
I was talking to the guy at the gas company. He said that in their training they are taught how to deal with a fire inside the Acet cylinder. Apparently you can tell because the casing glows red hot. You turn a fire hose on it and keep it on it until it cools back down, apparently like half an hour later. The guy said, as far as he was concerned, if he ever saw an Acet cylinder glowing read hot, he was going to jump in his car and gun it for the far side of town...
Here is the first fact check story I came across. Yeah, I bet it "relieved" the pressure...
https://www2.vanuatuships.com/content/view/118/2/
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More good news about Acet:
"It is generally considered to be non-toxic because fire or explosion would most likely occur before concentrations hight enough to produce chronic harmful effects are experienced."
"It is generally considered to be non-toxic because fire or explosion would most likely occur before concentrations hight enough to produce chronic harmful effects are experienced."
#21
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
Acetylene makes me sick... I am probably highly sensitive to very small traces of acetone or the phospines that gives acetylene it's particularly unpleasant smell.
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Vid using an acetylene gauge and 4 different fuel gases
Here ya go, opinions? Perhaps I may not need to buy anything I don't already have.
JohnDThompson:
Brian
JohnDThompson:
"AFAIK, the only difference between a propane regulator and an acetylene regulator is that the propane gauge does not have a RED LINE at 15psi"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q4ZZHBfLDYBrian
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Last edited by calstar; 12-02-12 at 10:56 PM.
#23
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I also use an acet reg. on a propane tank. I think you need the specific regulator for heavy duty cutting; the flow and pressure of an acet. regulator might be insufficient. For brazing it's fine.
Btw to the OP: the flame temperature is not was is ultimately relevant. The amount of heat is. O/P has 2500 BTU per cuft of gas vs. 1500 for acet. but it uses more oxygen. The flame is also different, it has less heat in the the inner cone. It doesn't fillet braze as nicely but there is less chances of local overheating.
Btw to the OP: the flame temperature is not was is ultimately relevant. The amount of heat is. O/P has 2500 BTU per cuft of gas vs. 1500 for acet. but it uses more oxygen. The flame is also different, it has less heat in the the inner cone. It doesn't fillet braze as nicely but there is less chances of local overheating.
#24
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I picked up a new propane regulator today... no gauge but adjustable from 0-30 psi and is what would typically be used for a tiger torch.
My shop is a fairly cold place until I get the space heaters running and this affects the fuel... when it gets really cold it can take a few attempts to fire the propane space heater.
Purchased it at my local distributor for $33.00 plus a little more for the fittings... I was testing it on 3/4 inch nuts and washers that were threaded on to some all thread and clamped into a vice.
This is a good test due to the mass of steel and great amount of draw you get from the all thread and bench vice...
Regulator was set low but with enough pressure to get the propane flame to jump off the #4 (acetylene) tip I use for brazing, this gives a lot of adjustment at the handle and I run my oxygen at 10 psi.
Torch is a Victor 315FC for anyone that wonders these things... it is hard to find brazing tips but a #4 works very well and some might prefer a #3.
My shop is a fairly cold place until I get the space heaters running and this affects the fuel... when it gets really cold it can take a few attempts to fire the propane space heater.
Purchased it at my local distributor for $33.00 plus a little more for the fittings... I was testing it on 3/4 inch nuts and washers that were threaded on to some all thread and clamped into a vice.
This is a good test due to the mass of steel and great amount of draw you get from the all thread and bench vice...
Regulator was set low but with enough pressure to get the propane flame to jump off the #4 (acetylene) tip I use for brazing, this gives a lot of adjustment at the handle and I run my oxygen at 10 psi.
Torch is a Victor 315FC for anyone that wonders these things... it is hard to find brazing tips but a #4 works very well and some might prefer a #3.
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Fuel gas comparison table
Just passing on some info I've come across regarding propane use.
Heating Values of Fuel Gases are linked here:
https://www.energyadditives.com/html/...__hgx-3r_.html
And general info about AO to PO is found on the same site:
https://www.bakersgas.com/how-to-conv...ative-fuel.php
Heating Values of Fuel Gases are linked here:
https://www.energyadditives.com/html/...__hgx-3r_.html
And general info about AO to PO is found on the same site:
https://www.bakersgas.com/how-to-conv...ative-fuel.php
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Brian
Brian