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Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

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Old 12-24-12, 02:42 PM   #1
epicbike101
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What tube will slip on columbus spirit tubing, to make custom lugs

Hello,

I'm having a big problem regarding my plans to make custom lugs....

I have understood that it's possible to make custom lugs by tig welding two tubes together that are slightly larger, i have understood that the tubing for lugs must be 0.1 inch larger than the tubing and wall thickness 0.058 inches....

Is there any solution to my problem, where i could find the perfect tubing for lug material?
I'd want to make the bike out of coulmbus spirit tubing, or if necessary some other tubing, if it's the only solution....
the dimensions for spirit tubing are:

1.248 (1 1/4") top tube
1.49 (1 1/2") down tube
1.125 (1 1/8") seat tube

other wise i could use this tubing for lugs, but i think they're too thin, i understood that for lugs i neef 0.058" thick tubing..

ANY help is much appreciated, thank you in advance!
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Old 12-24-12, 04:22 PM   #2
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http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...tubing_un1.php
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Old 12-24-12, 04:44 PM   #3
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thank you! I appreciate it a lot
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Old 12-24-12, 08:38 PM   #4
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A note that some with a beautiful thing (lathe) will turn down the lug tubing to a smaller diameter to make the resulting look thinner/nicer. Andy.
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Old 12-24-12, 09:40 PM   #5
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The .058 thickness is to get the ID needed so that the clearance is small enough that the filler is sufficiently strong. It makes for a very thick lug
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Old 12-24-12, 09:47 PM   #6
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Aren't the Spirit tubes of that size ovalized/shaped? Between that and the butting profiles, those aren't tubes that are good candidates for custom lugs.
Definitely not the tubeset you'd want for you first frame either.
either way, Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-25-12, 06:49 AM   #7
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Aren't the Spirit tubes of that size ovalized/shaped? Between that and the butting profiles, those aren't tubes that are good candidates for custom lugs.
Definitely not the tubeset you'd want for you first frame either.
either way, Merry Christmas!
Hi,

There are two kind of spirit tubing, one shaped and one round...
would be sweet someday to make a shaped tubed bike with custom lugs, but I need practice...

cheers

Last edited by epicbike101; 12-25-12 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 12-25-12, 06:51 AM   #8
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A note that some with a beautiful thing (lathe) will turn down the lug tubing to a smaller diameter to make the resulting look thinner/nicer. Andy.
I'll have to look for metal lathe around...

I assume 1mm is ideal lug thickness?

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Old 12-25-12, 08:40 AM   #9
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Ideal thickness is in the eye of the builder. But 1mm is about what i would aim for. Andy.
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Old 12-25-12, 10:08 AM   #10
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Ideal thickness is in the eye of the builder. But 1mm is about what i would aim for. Andy.
Thanks andy, I greatly appreciate your advice
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Old 12-27-12, 02:11 PM   #11
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Aren't the Spirit tubes of that size ovalized/shaped? Between that and the butting profiles, those aren't tubes that are good candidates for custom lugs. Definitely not the tubeset you'd want for you first frame either. either way, Merry Christmas!
-5 LW; If the OP is cutting his frame tubes down far enough that he is in pass the butt all is lost anyway. I didn't read anything in his post that implies that so I am willing to believe OP is not an idgit. Thus as long as it is using the round version of the Spirit line, the task is relatively simple, just some trial and error in terms of fitting selection, a set of lugs for the shaped tubes is also feasible and not really that hard. It is also relatively easy to round out the lug candidate after cutting it down the top side and then just filling that in with brass (or TIG in a strip cut from scrap for the fussy ones. Same if the lug donor is a bit too large; just slice and resize and press on. Any one with the gained skills to make a competent frame can do any of these with just a bit of practice.
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Old 12-27-12, 02:39 PM   #12
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Ideal thickness is in the eye of the builder. But 1mm is about what i would aim for. Andy.
+5 Andrew; I completely agree. This is a very common thickness and thus it is easy to find in less expensive CroMo straight gauge tubing from the suppliers in the suppliers forum. When I started messing with lug making, I just ordered the in stock length (seems they were 36" back then) of each of the sizes they carried from 0.875" up to 1.5". Nova (http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...g/TUBES-STEEL/) still carries some non-butted tubes but I don't have a regular source for a full range of sizes as it has been a few years since I last bought stockage. A lot of times the nubbins off the ends of used up butted tubes (usually 0.9mm) fills the need...
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Old 12-27-12, 07:48 PM   #13
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The round Spirit tubes in the diameters specified by the OP do come with short butts according to the catalogue. 35 mm on the short side. That is pushing it for a lugged construction, especially considering the thickness is 0.5-0.38 mm.
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Old 12-28-12, 09:09 AM   #14
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The round Spirit tubes in the diameters specified by the OP do come with short butts according to the catalogue. 35 mm on the short side. That is pushing it for a lugged construction, especially considering the thickness is 0.5-0.38 mm.
I think perhaps you looked at the round spirit tubing for tig welding?

This is the columbus spirit tubing for lugs:
http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/4_4_3.htm

I understand it will not be a problem to build custom lugs with 100-140 mm butts???

thanks for input
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Old 12-28-12, 09:53 AM   #15
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Yes of course Spirit for lugs would work. I was confused because you mentionned a 1.25" top tube and 1.5" down tube, which is for the other (for TIG) Spirit.
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Old 12-28-12, 02:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by epicbike101 View Post
Hello, I'm having a big problem regarding my plans to make custom lugs....
I have understood that it's possible to make custom lugs by tig welding two tubes together that are slightly larger, i have understood that the tubing for lugs must be 0.1 inch larger than the tubing and wall thickness 0.058 inches.... Is there any solution to my problem, where i could find the perfect tubing for lug material? I'd want to make the bike out of coulmbus spirit tubing, or if necessary some other tubing, if it's the only solution.... the dimensions for spirit tubing are:

1.248 (1 1/4") top tube
1.49 (1 1/2") down tube
1.125 (1 1/8") seat tube

other wise i could use this tubing for lugs, but i think they're too thin, i understood that for lugs i neef 0.058" thick tubing.. ANY help is much appreciated, thank you in advance!
As already posted, the Aircraft Spruce link seems like the gold mine to dig around in for lug making as they have essentially a complete line of sizes, many in several thickness, and they specifically list the ID and OD of each item to allow the OP to sort cats into the right sized bag. I know I am going to be doing some pondering at that site this weekend for some of the projects I have put off such as racks, cages, etc., given the availability down to 3/16 inch OD...
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Old 12-31-12, 01:35 AM   #17
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Given the spec of 1/10" gap diameter for the lug to the tube. That might be a bit tight - lets see what others think, but for now, lets use it and the URL for aircraft spruce offered by EpicBike101 to see what off the shelf CroMo tubing might be close to the need for lug making with the OP's current tubeset;

1.125 (1 1/8") your seat tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.225" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 3/8" 0.058" wall with 1.259 ID might work
-- 1 3/8" 0.065 wall with 1.245" ID might also
-- $4.55/ft for either

1.248 (1 1/4") your top tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.35" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 1/2" 0.083 wall with 1.334" ID might work
-- 1 1/2" 0.065 wall with 1.370" ID might also
-- $4.95/ft for either

1.49 (1 1/2") your down tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.60" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 3/4" 0.065' wall with 1.62" ID might work
-- $8/ft

Hope that helps
ksisler

Last edited by ksisler; 12-31-12 at 01:36 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-31-12, 07:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ksisler View Post
Given the spec of 1/10" gap diameter for the lug to the tube. That might be a bit tight - lets see what others think, but for now, lets use it and the URL for aircraft spruce offered by EpicBike101 to see what off the shelf CroMo tubing might be close to the need for lug making with the OP's current tubeset;


1.125 (1 1/8") your seat tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.225" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 3/8" 0.058" wall with 1.259 ID might work
-- 1 3/8" 0.065 wall with 1.245" ID might also
-- $4.55/ft for either

1.248 (1 1/4") your top tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.35" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 1/2" 0.083 wall with 1.334" ID might work
-- 1 1/2" 0.065 wall with 1.370" ID might also
-- $4.95/ft for either

1.49 (1 1/2") your down tube
-- Needs lug ID=1.60" for 1/10" gap as stated
-- 1 3/4" 0.065' wall with 1.62" ID might work
-- $8/ft

Hope that helps
ksisler
Holy midget!

I think I've ordered wrong tubing? I wa looking for a gap between 0.005 inch and 0.009 inch, this what i've read on a forum that is just about what would be good for silver brazing?
I've noticed that I gave wrong dimensions in the first post, I'm really sorry, I don't remember how it came up like that, anyway these are the dimensions:

31.8mm is 1.2519 Inches
and 28.6 is 1.1259 inches

(this is the size of the columbus oversize tubing for lugs, as given dimensions here:
http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...D-TUBESET.html

So can you please help me in confirming that did i or not order wrong:

-for 1 1/8 inch columbus tubes i ordered 1 1/4 OD 0.058 thick that has 1.134 inch I.D. which will leave a gap of 0.009 inches

-and for 1 1/4 columbus tubing i ordered 1 3/8 O.D 0.058 which has I.D. of 1.259 which will leave a gap of 0.007 inch (calculated from exactly 31.8 mm columbus O.D)

Please help me out

thanks and very happy new year!!

Last edited by epicbike101; 12-31-12 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 12-31-12, 09:43 AM   #19
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1/10" is way too loose. 1/100" or less is more like it. What you ordered is exactly what you need.
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Old 12-31-12, 02:46 PM   #20
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1/10" is way too loose. 1/100" or less is more like it. What you ordered is exactly what you need.
cheers, happy new year!
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Old 01-01-13, 09:01 PM   #21
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-5 LW;
Yeah... Thanks for the the grade there buddy....the point of my post was to get the OP to look at the Spirit tubing specs and to realize why the tubes he indicated wouldn't work. A moot point now as it seems there was a typo in the first post.
apologies for being too oblique.
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Old 01-02-13, 08:56 AM   #22
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1/10" is way too loose. 1/100" or less is more like it. What you ordered is exactly what you need.
+10; agree completely. If OP is going to silver solder his frame then a much tighter fit for the lugs is needed. 0.01 is a good working figure for silver, imho. The lug material mentioned for silver in the follow up would seem to be good choices for the task.

Rewind; From what I read in the OPP, I sensed a new builder pondering the issue for the first time. He gave the spec of 1/10" (which is at least in the ball park for brass) so I went with that being careful to state that we would wait for others to chip in their thoughts (which happened) on the gap issue. The point of my post was to provide an example of a process to follow, not a crib sheet for the finals. Same as a good physics instructor who will teach how to think, not what to think.

I will note that given the crazy high cost of silver these days, I don't think of it as a primary solution except for the highest end tubesets which new builders should not start with, imho. And I don't have much use for high end tubesets either, mostly due to high cost and fussiness and my experience that customers chasing the latest/greatest/lightest/thinest tubes, instead of a really good bike, as more trouble than they are worth...).

Hope that helps
K
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Old 01-02-13, 09:42 AM   #23
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I don't think 0.1" is suitable for any filler. 0.004-0.01" (on the diameter, the actual gap is half that) is recommended for silver or brass filler.
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Old 01-02-13, 09:56 AM   #24
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I don't think 0.1" is suitable for any filler. 0.004-0.01" (on the diameter, the actual gap is half that) is recommended for silver or brass filler.

I highly appreciate the input, I'm also sorry for the newbie typo that i did, as it's obvious, I'm very new to the art of framebuilding

thank you
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Old 01-02-13, 10:20 AM   #25
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Here is an explanation of of slip tube sizes that can be purchased and that work together for sliver or brass brazing. Most tubing has a few thousandths of an inch variation + or - over what it is supposed to be.


Tubing in the US is commonly sold with outside diameters (OD) in even fraction amounts like 1", 1 1/18", 1 1/4" and so on. They also inventory wall thicknesses in each OD in a few common sizes starting with .028" (in sizes a framebuilder would commonly use). .035" is a great wall thickness for bicycle builders for practice or when double butted tubing isn't needed. The other wall thicknesses that are of interest to us is .058" and .120". The ID of these last 2 are what make slip tubes. I would define a slip tube as something that moves fairly freely but doesn't have a lot of slop and has a workable amount of clearance for brazing together.


If a tube has .028" wall thickness it will slip over a tube 1/16" smaller in OD. For example a tube that has an OD of 1 1/16" and has a wall thickness of .028" will slip over another tube that is 1" OD. This is the ideal combination to make lugs but is no longer commonly available. I bought some years ago that wasn't 4130 but DOM (which means Drawn Over Mandrel) of some low carbon something or other. This is my stock to make bilaminate lugs. In other words I got tubing with ODs of 1 1/16", 1 3/16" and 1 5/16" and have a wall thickness of .028". Works great. The problem is that I haven't found a supply for this size anywhere lately.


A tube with .058" wall thickness will slip over a tube with a 1/8" smaller OD. For example a 1 1/8" OD tube with .058" walls will slide over 1" OD tube. This combination is most commonly used because it is most commonly available. Some thickness has to be removed for lug making so it doesn't look chunky. Ideally this is done on a lathe beforehand but also some bulk could be removed either before or after with a file. This is also a great combination for practice brazing. In other words a 2 centimeter length of tube (give or take) that has a wall thickness of .058" can be slide over a longer piece of .035" tubing that is an eighth of an inch smaller in diameter and brazed together. This is where we start in my framebuilding classes before the more expensive actual frame pieces are used.


A tube with .120" wall thickness will slip over a tube with 1/4" smaller OD. For example a 1 1/4" OD tube with .120" wall thickness will slip over a 1" tube. This combination is most commonly used for making some kind of fixture or tooling.


Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

Last edited by Doug Fattic; 01-02-13 at 10:24 AM.
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