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  1. #1
    Senior Member calstar's Avatar
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    Ring brazing ooooops!

    I've previously heard and seen(prior to seeing this) about the lousy quality of some 70s Raleighs and it was brought up again in this thread:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...eadset-install

    Here is some insight(sorry for the pun) of inside the brazed lug. I cut up old frames to practice brazing, when I cut up a 1973 Grand Sport initially thought wtf, some worker lost his wedding ring in the top tube? No such luck, it wasn't gold but a brass brazing ring, maybe from hearth brazing process(don't know but guessing).

    The frame had failed at the seat tube/top tube lug due to penetration of water at the lug. Unfortunately I already tossed that part of the frame so I couldn't inspect the lug when I discovered the brass ring lodged in the tt/ht lug. I'm guessing the ring was installed in the st/tt area and never melted, then slid down tt and has ben in there for 40 yrs.

    I saved the ht and the other day when I picked it up the ring fell out, discolored from the rust in the lug but it shined right up. The ht/tt and ht/dt lug pics both show partially melted brazing rings, maybe enough mtl flowed in the lug to make it sound but I doubt it as the other end at the st wasn't.

    Sort of confusing to talk about, here are some pics. Brian







    Last edited by calstar; 03-16-13 at 04:27 PM.
    "The older I get the better I was" (from Old Guys Rule t-shirt)

  2. #2
    Randomhead
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    there is more evidence in THIS THREAD
    I understand that there is a lot of nostalgia for Raleighs of this vintage because people have good memories of what they did riding their raleigh. They were horribly made. Of all the bike boom bikes, the boom ruined Raleigh the worst. At least the crummy Peugeots and Schwinn Varsities of this era were made with quality control.

  3. #3
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    I love this kind of forensic work. I removed half of a broken drill bit lodged in a klein frame a couple of weeks ago. The had squirted glue in the vent hole to catch the bit which came loose when chemical paint remover disolved the glue.
    I rolled a piece of paper and funneled it out the vent hole drilled in the brake boss that could be seen when the stud was unscrewed.

    This 1900 Nashua frame had at some point in time, filled with water, froze and burst. It also had a hole burned through the top of the lug (and the tube) that had been packed with coal slag and brazed over. I don't think they got any bronze in the joint.



    17 043 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



    17 041 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    17 040 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

    after some TIG and braze repair.


    29 743 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



    I think photo retouching and brazing were left off his resume but salesmanship was not.


    corson_home_factory by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr
    Last edited by ftwelder; 03-17-13 at 06:55 AM.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  4. #4
    tuz
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    I don't have examples as bad as that, but I had some WTF moments while working on a 1937 CCM. It was actually pretty well made, but the mass-producing techniques were evident. The lugs were tack-welded, and the mitres were very crude (almost excusable for the one-piece headtube). The seat lug was very nice with sharp transitions, the ST and DT were 1-1/16 OD.

    PICT0586.jpgPICT0592.jpgPICT0595.jpgPICT0598.jpg
    homebuilt commuter, mixte, road and track (+ Ryffranck road)
    bla bla blog

  5. #5
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuz View Post
    I don't have examples as bad as that, but I had some WTF moments while working on a 1937 CCM. It was actually pretty well made, but the mass-producing techniques were evident. The lugs were tack-welded, and the mitres were very crude (almost excusable for the one-piece headtube). The seat lug was very nice with sharp transitions, the ST and DT were 1-1/16 OD.

    PICT0586.jpgPICT0592.jpgPICT0595.jpgPICT0598.jpg

    Rebuilding the whole frame?
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  6. #6
    tuz
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    Sort of. The frame was a low-end heavy model, and was bent and dented out of shape. I recycled the lugs and crown (not the BB shell) and put new tubes in. I also used the original headset, BB and crank (all I had anyway) and used modern parts for the rest. Check the triangular BB axle.

    ccm3.jpgccm2.jpgccm1.jpg
    Last edited by tuz; 03-19-13 at 07:59 AM.
    homebuilt commuter, mixte, road and track (+ Ryffranck road)
    bla bla blog

  7. #7
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    That's too cool tuz! I'm old, but my interest in bicycles doesn't go back to the "old days." What I found interesting was the bottom bracket. Wonder why there was switch to square taper. It seems the triangular interface might be a better solution. Nice work- keep it up!

  8. #8
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuz View Post
    Sort of. The frame was a low-end heavy model, and was bent and dented out of shape. I recycled the lugs and crown (not the BB shell) and put new tubes in. I also used the original headset, BB and crank (all I had anyway) and used modern parts for the rest. Check the triangular BB axle.

    ccm3.jpgccm2.jpgccm1.jpg
    The crank is called a Triplex and was seen on CCM bicycles in the 20's and 30's... it is a very early example of a cartridge bottom bracket with a relatively modern spindle and these were also seen into the 1950's on higher end CCM bicycles when most other CCM bikes had a standard one piece crank.

    The Triplex fits in an Astabula hub body and is also a type of threadless bottom bracket... I have one here in my shop as a display piece.

  9. #9
    tuz
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    Thanks! I'm a fan of CCM, they used to be manufactured nearby. They had really good engineers and innovators. I've always wanted the flagship ''Flyer'' model that was used by the 6-day champions. It cost twice what the one I got did back then. Mine (the ''Road Racer'') has a similar crown and lugs, that's as close as I'll get I guess.

    The Triplex was probably the 1st cotterless axle/crank that was manufactured in large numbers (from the 30s to the 50s). They had a few versions. My ''cartridge'' BB is a Bayliss-Wiley from the UK. It's similar to a normal BB but it threads in a sleeve which is then inserted in the frame. The cups have a small tapered lip, just like the Mavic threadless BB but many years before.

    It was really interesting to unbraze that thing and learn about the manufacturing methods of the day.
    homebuilt commuter, mixte, road and track (+ Ryffranck road)
    bla bla blog

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