Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-13-13, 05:29 PM   #1
goatfish
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 12
Internal rust! HELP????

Hi all

Not a frame building question as such, but I'd genuinely appreciate the help of the collective talent in this forum.

I have inherited a beautiful '99 Moser Leader frame, fillet brazed, 18 MCDV6 micro alloyed frame. The craftsmanship has inspired me to attempt to learn to build my own. Later....

But first - this frame has been in storage in a relatively humid environment for some time. On unpacking, the previous owner found flakes of rust falling out of the top tube in into the head tube. Largest flake we've found was about 5mm square-ish.

Please help!

Is there anything that can be done to stop the rot? This frame is a work of art in my opinion and one which deserves saving and faithful restoration.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
goatfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-13, 06:03 PM   #2
Fred Smedley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,706
Oxalic acid and then frame saver or amsoil HDMP. Do a search in C& V on OA for the details.
Fred Smedley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-13, 06:05 PM   #3
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,485
there really is nothing you can do other than applying frame saver. No messing around with experimental alternatives, just get the real stuff, your LBS should be able to get some for you.
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-13, 06:18 PM   #4
Fred Smedley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
there really is nothing you can do other than applying frame saver. No messing around with experimental alternatives, just get the real stuff, your LBS should be able to get some for you.
Have you used OA? Hardley a "experimental alternatives".
Fred Smedley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-13, 10:04 AM   #5
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,167
Boeshield T9

Far from scientific but here's a piece of metal i coated with various rust inhibitors. From left to right

Mobil 1 synthetic oil
WD-40
Corrosion Block
Boeshield T-9
$$ dont remember
Loctite product

__________________
WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 1984 Schwinn Paramount; 1987 Schwinn Paramount; 1975 Tom Ritchey, 198X Vitus

Last edited by miamijim; 12-16-13 at 10:11 AM.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-13, 11:13 AM   #6
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
Have you used OA? Hardley a "experimental alternatives".
OA is fine, not sure if it really helps internal rust. The internal rust will be gone after OA, not sure why I would care
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-13, 11:18 AM   #7
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Boeshield T9

Far from scientific but here's a piece of metal i coated with various rust inhibitors. From left to right

Mobil 1 synthetic oil
WD-40
Corrosion Block
Boeshield T-9
$$ dont remember
Loctite product
Fine woodworking magazine did a similar test and found that T9 didn't work all that well. They found that CRC 3-36 worked significantly better. They also found that WD40 worked well, which is not my experience at all. So I don't know who to believe. I'm not sure what the difference in your test and the FWW test was. I have not had great results with T9 on tools in my garage. Some wood workers spray with T9, wipe, and then use wax.
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 01:09 PM   #8
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 18,086
Equivalent of dunk it in rustoleum paint, so as to paint the inside.
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 03:28 PM   #9
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,485
if you do that, you have to worry about all sorts of issues. That's whats nice about framesaver, it will migrate and stick
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-13, 06:17 AM   #10
goatfish
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 12
Hi all

Some excellent information in there. Thank you all so much. Learning a lot.

I had a local frame builder take a look and he seems to think it is just some internal sealant (?) flaking due to the age of the frame and the conditions it had been stored in.

I'm a complete novice, but I'm still a little worried. Looks like OA and frame saver may be worth the investment. Even if I have nothing to worry about at this stage prevention has to beat cure.
goatfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-13, 10:37 PM   #11
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Bikes: Homebuilt steel
Posts: 2,332
Evaporust is the real deal. Doesn't hurt the paint and works 1000X better than oxalic acid. Figure out how to plug the holes and fill up the inside of the frame. Pour it back into the jug after you are done and reuse it.
__________________
Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

Good/Bad Trader Listing
Nessism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-13, 04:38 PM   #12
goatfish
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 12
Thanks Nessism! That sounds like the most idiot (read: me) proof suggestion yet! I'm on it!

Merry Christmas to you and all who have contributed to / read this thread!!
goatfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-13, 05:41 PM   #13
Fred Smedley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
Evaporust is the real deal. Doesn't hurt the paint and works 1000X better than oxalic acid. Figure out how to plug the holes and fill up the inside of the frame. Pour it back into the jug after you are done and reuse it.
Evaporust "works 1000X better" than OA which does not harm the paint and removes all the rust. Are we comparing outcome or time to achieve outcome?
Fred Smedley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-13, 11:41 PM   #14
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Bikes: Homebuilt steel
Posts: 2,332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
Evaporust "works 1000X better" than OA which does not harm the paint and removes all the rust. Are we comparing outcome or time to achieve outcome?
OA leaves a green film on raw steel. Not sure what that green materials is, but I'm not a fan. OA does work well on chrome though.
__________________
Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

Good/Bad Trader Listing
Nessism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-13, 11:47 AM   #15
Fred Smedley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
OA leaves a green film on raw steel. Not sure what that green materials is, but I'm not a fan. OA does work well on chrome though.
Never saw a green film, what was your mix ratio?
Fred Smedley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-13, 04:32 PM   #16
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Bikes: Homebuilt steel
Posts: 2,332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
Never saw a green film, what was your mix ratio?
I don't exactly know. Used a couple gallons of deck wash in a large garbage can. Soaked some motorcycle exhaust pipes. Took a long time to remove the rust so the concentration couldn't have been too high, plus the raw steel turned green.

I've used oxalic acid to remove surface rust from an old bike for my neighbor. Stuff worked a treat. It's the right product for that application. If you have heavier rust, and raw steel, oxalic acid isn't as good as other materials. Phosphoric acid is much better, but you should keep it away from paint. I've used phosphoric acid to clean rusty motorcycle gas tanks and it eats off the rust in just a few hours. For the bike in question, I'd use the Evaporust. Best stuff available, but not the cheapest.

__________________
Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

Good/Bad Trader Listing
Nessism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 01:22 PM   #17
SJX426 
Senior Member
 
SJX426's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alexandria, Va
Bikes: '72 Motobecane Le Champion(totaled), '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '94 Burley Duet, '88 Pinarello Tre Cime, '88 Masi Gran Corsa, '91 Pinarello Montello, '97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster
Posts: 4,850
OA results vary with time and concentration. Usually the film left behind is an indication of too high a concentration. In addtion, OA does convert a very small percentage of the rust back to iron. No steel is lost as only the oxidized rust is absorbed into the solution. Search is your friend on learning more. I bought OA in a paint store in chrystaline form for $7 and have been using it for years. About a teaspoon per gal is all you need and 24 hours. Plus you can reuse it multiple times. To neutralize it, clean the part in baking soda solution and dry thouroughly.
SJX426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-14, 06:55 AM   #18
Fred Smedley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
OA results vary with time and concentration. Usually the film left behind is an indication of too high a concentration. In addtion, OA does convert a very small percentage of the rust back to iron. No steel is lost as only the oxidized rust is absorbed into the solution. Search is your friend on learning more. I bought OA in a paint store in chrystaline form for $7 and have been using it for years. About a teaspoon per gal is all you need and 24 hours. Plus you can reuse it multiple times. To neutralize it, clean the part in baking soda solution and dry thouroughly.
I used under 1/2 cup in a kiddie pool- 80 gallons , took a couple of days, no green film , nuetralized with baking soda.
Fred Smedley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-14, 08:17 PM   #19
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.
Posts: 3,730
Ospho, works everytime. Kills rust.

http://www.amazon.com/OSPHOQ-OSPHO-M.../dp/B000C02CDG
Michael Angelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:10 PM.