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  1. #1
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    Internal rust! HELP????

    Hi all

    Not a frame building question as such, but I'd genuinely appreciate the help of the collective talent in this forum.

    I have inherited a beautiful '99 Moser Leader frame, fillet brazed, 18 MCDV6 micro alloyed frame. The craftsmanship has inspired me to attempt to learn to build my own. Later....

    But first - this frame has been in storage in a relatively humid environment for some time. On unpacking, the previous owner found flakes of rust falling out of the top tube in into the head tube. Largest flake we've found was about 5mm square-ish.

    Please help!

    Is there anything that can be done to stop the rot? This frame is a work of art in my opinion and one which deserves saving and faithful restoration.

    Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers

  2. #2
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    Oxalic acid and then frame saver or amsoil HDMP. Do a search in C& V on OA for the details.

  3. #3
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    there really is nothing you can do other than applying frame saver. No messing around with experimental alternatives, just get the real stuff, your LBS should be able to get some for you.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    there really is nothing you can do other than applying frame saver. No messing around with experimental alternatives, just get the real stuff, your LBS should be able to get some for you.
    Have you used OA? Hardley a "experimental alternatives".

  5. #5
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Boeshield T9

    Far from scientific but here's a piece of metal i coated with various rust inhibitors. From left to right

    Mobil 1 synthetic oil
    WD-40
    Corrosion Block
    Boeshield T-9
    $$ dont remember
    Loctite product

    Last edited by miamijim; 12-16-13 at 09:11 AM.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  6. #6
    Randomhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Have you used OA? Hardley a "experimental alternatives".
    OA is fine, not sure if it really helps internal rust. The internal rust will be gone after OA, not sure why I would care

  7. #7
    Randomhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    Boeshield T9

    Far from scientific but here's a piece of metal i coated with various rust inhibitors. From left to right

    Mobil 1 synthetic oil
    WD-40
    Corrosion Block
    Boeshield T-9
    $$ dont remember
    Loctite product
    Fine woodworking magazine did a similar test and found that T9 didn't work all that well. They found that CRC 3-36 worked significantly better. They also found that WD40 worked well, which is not my experience at all. So I don't know who to believe. I'm not sure what the difference in your test and the FWW test was. I have not had great results with T9 on tools in my garage. Some wood workers spray with T9, wipe, and then use wax.

  8. #8
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Equivalent of dunk it in rustoleum paint, so as to paint the inside.

  9. #9
    Randomhead
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    if you do that, you have to worry about all sorts of issues. That's whats nice about framesaver, it will migrate and stick

  10. #10
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    Hi all

    Some excellent information in there. Thank you all so much. Learning a lot.

    I had a local frame builder take a look and he seems to think it is just some internal sealant (?) flaking due to the age of the frame and the conditions it had been stored in.

    I'm a complete novice, but I'm still a little worried. Looks like OA and frame saver may be worth the investment. Even if I have nothing to worry about at this stage prevention has to beat cure.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    Evaporust is the real deal. Doesn't hurt the paint and works 1000X better than oxalic acid. Figure out how to plug the holes and fill up the inside of the frame. Pour it back into the jug after you are done and reuse it.
    Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

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  12. #12
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    Thanks Nessism! That sounds like the most idiot (read: me) proof suggestion yet! I'm on it!

    Merry Christmas to you and all who have contributed to / read this thread!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
    Evaporust is the real deal. Doesn't hurt the paint and works 1000X better than oxalic acid. Figure out how to plug the holes and fill up the inside of the frame. Pour it back into the jug after you are done and reuse it.
    Evaporust "works 1000X better" than OA which does not harm the paint and removes all the rust. Are we comparing outcome or time to achieve outcome?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Evaporust "works 1000X better" than OA which does not harm the paint and removes all the rust. Are we comparing outcome or time to achieve outcome?
    OA leaves a green film on raw steel. Not sure what that green materials is, but I'm not a fan. OA does work well on chrome though.
    Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
    OA leaves a green film on raw steel. Not sure what that green materials is, but I'm not a fan. OA does work well on chrome though.
    Never saw a green film, what was your mix ratio?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Never saw a green film, what was your mix ratio?
    I don't exactly know. Used a couple gallons of deck wash in a large garbage can. Soaked some motorcycle exhaust pipes. Took a long time to remove the rust so the concentration couldn't have been too high, plus the raw steel turned green.

    I've used oxalic acid to remove surface rust from an old bike for my neighbor. Stuff worked a treat. It's the right product for that application. If you have heavier rust, and raw steel, oxalic acid isn't as good as other materials. Phosphoric acid is much better, but you should keep it away from paint. I've used phosphoric acid to clean rusty motorcycle gas tanks and it eats off the rust in just a few hours. For the bike in question, I'd use the Evaporust. Best stuff available, but not the cheapest.

    Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

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  17. #17
    Senior Member SJX426's Avatar
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    OA results vary with time and concentration. Usually the film left behind is an indication of too high a concentration. In addtion, OA does convert a very small percentage of the rust back to iron. No steel is lost as only the oxidized rust is absorbed into the solution. Search is your friend on learning more. I bought OA in a paint store in chrystaline form for $7 and have been using it for years. About a teaspoon per gal is all you need and 24 hours. Plus you can reuse it multiple times. To neutralize it, clean the part in baking soda solution and dry thouroughly.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
    OA results vary with time and concentration. Usually the film left behind is an indication of too high a concentration. In addtion, OA does convert a very small percentage of the rust back to iron. No steel is lost as only the oxidized rust is absorbed into the solution. Search is your friend on learning more. I bought OA in a paint store in chrystaline form for $7 and have been using it for years. About a teaspoon per gal is all you need and 24 hours. Plus you can reuse it multiple times. To neutralize it, clean the part in baking soda solution and dry thouroughly.
    I used under 1/2 cup in a kiddie pool- 80 gallons , took a couple of days, no green film , nuetralized with baking soda.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    Ospho, works everytime. Kills rust.

    http://www.amazon.com/OSPHOQ-OSPHO-M.../dp/B000C02CDG

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