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-   -   First Timer - frame set and product "okay-ing" (http://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/926107-first-timer-frame-set-product-okay-ing.html)

g_firkser 12-14-13 03:02 AM

First Timer - frame set and product "okay-ing"
 
Hey ya'll!

This is a bit of a funny one, but I'm going to attempt my first frame build, and before everyone smashes me for not having plans already drawn up for sizes, angles, length, etc... I'd still like to purchase the tube sets and plan while waiting for them to arrive. I'm sort of a learn by mistake type guy anyways...

I know this isn't exactly the most kosher way of asking for the grand "yes you got the right stuff", but if I literally posted links to what I'm intending on buying, would anyone or someone feel comfortable giving the yes or no to what i'm getting?

If anyone finds this inappropriate, let me know please and I'll pull down this post.

So I plan on buying two sets, both of which will be single speed to begin with, hence the lack of braze-ons. I may consider making one a geared bike and adding the appropriate cable stops later.

Tube Set 1:http://bit.ly/1c2zwpV
Seat Stay Caps:http://bit.ly/1kIpRnM x 2
Dropouts:http://bit.ly/1c2zCOh x 2
Seat Stay Break Bridge:http://bit.ly/1ecsws9
Chain Stay Bridge: Intend on buying tube from hardware shop and brazing on myself.


Tube Set 2:http://bit.ly/1bEtQQa
Seat Stay Caps: http://bit.ly/1bEtUzq x 2
Dropouts, SS Bridge, CS Bridge are same as above.

Does this all make sense and seem congruent?

Huge thanks in advanced for whoever takes their time to look at these links and give their opinions.
Everyone in this forum group has been amazingly supportive considering the amount of nonsense questions i've already asked.

Thanks again!

Gav

unterhausen 12-14-13 09:18 AM

the fleur de lis lugs are not really appropriate for a first time builder. Otherwise your list seems fine.

Andrew R Stewart 12-14-13 09:43 AM

Gav- Do you have a bunch of experience with brazing and metal fabrication in general? If not then I'll strongly suggest that you include a lot of practice materials and time first. These pieces could be tube kits but might be less costly ($ and emotion) if they were simple tubing. These can be cut into small pieces to practice your brazing and fixturing with, then cut in half to see how your skills are progressing. When you have complete penetration consistently, no shifting from the set up with no flux burning time after time you're ready to move onto the frames. I use 1" tubes of .035" walls with 1.125" x .056" walls for my lug practice. The .056" walled tube is cut into odd shaped sections that will slide over the 1" tube with, other then internal sanding/cleaning, the gaps needed for flow brazing. For fillet practice I'll use two .035" walled tubes. As i don't build full time/year round I find my skills need tuning up each Fall. Andy.

Andrew R Stewart 12-14-13 09:48 AM

Gav- I'll add to my above post a bit of a complaint/rant.

If you included your location others who have experience and are nearby might be willing could offer to help you out in person. I've extended my time to a number of first timers and had a few take me up on the offer. Usually this is a meet up once or twice to watch/practice brazing. Often including a beer afterward. Andy.

Live Wire 12-14-13 07:35 PM

What Andy and UH said, plus the second tubeset is too thin for your second frame... and those second seatstay caps, they are too small for that tube set and ye gods those things are even too ugly to use on the right size tubes, make your own.

unterhausen 12-14-13 10:04 PM

I used plugs on one bike 30 years ago and got a line, so never again. Those plugs that are smaller diameter than the stays always looked horrible to me. I could never see using something that looked so distinctive that a lot of other people have used. On a lugged bike, there isn't much that distinguishes one frame from another, seat stay caps are one thing that does

g_firkser 12-15-13 03:52 AM

ya, that actually occurred to me while riding my bike today :)

g_firkser 12-15-13 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16329390)
Gav- Do you have a bunch of experience with brazing and metal fabrication in general? If not then I'll strongly suggest that you include a lot of practice materials and time first. These pieces could be tube kits but might be less costly ($ and emotion) if they were simple tubing. These can be cut into small pieces to practice your brazing and fixturing with, then cut in half to see how your skills are progressing. When you have complete penetration consistently, no shifting from the set up with no flux burning time after time you're ready to move onto the frames. I use 1" tubes of .035" walls with 1.125" x .056" walls for my lug practice. The .056" walled tube is cut into odd shaped sections that will slide over the 1" tube with, other then internal sanding/cleaning, the gaps needed for flow brazing. For fillet practice I'll use two .035" walled tubes. As i don't build full time/year round I find my skills need tuning up each Fall. Andy.

Freaking excellent comment! Thanks :) Much practice is in need, so the tubes are a perfect idea.

As for location, Wellington, New Zealand. I wish I was back in Toronto, because finding other framebuilders would be a snap.

g_firkser 12-15-13 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live Wire (Post 16330754)
What Andy and UH said, plus the second tubeset is too thin for your second frame... and those second seatstay caps, they are too small for that tube set and ye gods those things are even too ugly to use on the right size tubes, make your own.

haha thanks for that. I wasn't sure what size I needed for the second set. The diameter wasn't actually stated.

MassiveD 12-15-13 04:09 PM

It helps to know weight, height, style of build. There are certain things I like in a touring bike that lugs aren't ideal for. You have one bike on the light end, and one on the Brobdingnagian end of the scale. That is part of the fun, I'll build a Singer, and then follow up with a Comotion. Might be better to get something in the middle, but where is the fun in that. I don't much like light tubing in touring bikes (unless they are credit card RAAM type things). Just don't see the upside. It basically only affects two tubes and the weight savings of a foil thick piece of steel just isn't that great. I work it out at 3.2 oz per 24 inch tube. And it is one of those deals where while the weight loss is good, the extra material is actually a plus in every other category. Plus there is other stuff one needs like braze ons, S&S, dent resistance for shipping, heat control...

Also on a touring bike I like really good components. So I wouldn't build in two size of seat post. I would want one post and saddle I could use on both, that can be 180-350 and up just for those two parts. Plus do you earn back any weight with the fat seat post, and probable extra length they tend to come with? Don't know... You can sleeve down to the smaller size, but I don't imagine that is the look you want.

g_firkser 12-15-13 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MassiveD (Post 16332497)
It helps to know weight, height, style of build. There are certain things I like in a touring bike that lugs aren't ideal for. You have one bike on the light end, and one on the Brobdingnagian end of the scale. That is part of the fun, I'll build a Singer, and then follow up with a Comotion. Might be better to get something in the middle, but where is the fun in that. I don't much like light tubing in touring bikes (unless they are credit card RAAM type things). Just don't see the upside. It basically only affects two tubes and the weight savings of a foil thick piece of steel just isn't that great. I work it out at 3.2 oz per 24 inch tube. And it is one of those deals where while the weight loss is good, the extra material is actually a plus in every other category. Plus there is other stuff one needs like braze ons, S&S, dent resistance for shipping, heat control...

Also on a touring bike I like really good components. So I wouldn't build in two size of seat post. I would want one post and saddle I could use on both, that can be 180-350 and up just for those two parts. Plus do you earn back any weight with the fat seat post, and probable extra length they tend to come with? Don't know... You can sleeve down to the smaller size, but I don't imagine that is the look you want.

Ye, good points here for sure. I'm limited to the oxy-acetelyn medium at the moment, hence lugged bikes. I'm looking for the simplest build at the moment for learning sake, so a single speed seemed commuter seemed appropriate. My reference was the Surly Steamroller. http://surlybikes.com/bikes/steamroller

Andrew R Stewart 12-15-13 09:27 PM

Gav- The simplest would be a fillet frame. No lug bending and a focus on what counts, good mitering. Andy.

MassiveD 12-15-13 10:50 PM

And the ability to make a truly custom frame if you are in the 30 percent that has differing geometry needs from standard, not to mention the differing potential needs of the touring frame.

g_firkser 12-16-13 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16333154)
Gav- The simplest would be a fillet frame. No lug bending and a focus on what counts, good mitering. Andy.

note taken! for fillet brazing, thicker or thinner metal suggested?

i'm real open to what material i'm using, and honestly just wanted to start with the simplest brazing technique with a somewhat quick learning curve. obviously practice is what's most important here.

g_firkser 12-16-13 01:44 AM

would everyone agree that a fillet frame is possibly easier than lugged? Or is it more of a personal preference?

unterhausen 12-16-13 06:20 AM

each has challenges. I think lugs offer a false sense of security because of the redundant structural elements. Fillet brazing is something you have to learn anyway, if only for brake bridges.

ksisler 12-17-13 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g_firkser (Post 16328970)
Hey ya'll! This is a bit of a funny one, but I'm going to attempt my first frame build, and before everyone smashes me for not having plans already drawn up for sizes, angles, length, etc... I'd still like to purchase the tube sets and plan while waiting for them to arrive. I'm sort of a learn by mistake type guy anyways...

I know this isn't exactly the most kosher way of asking for the grand "yes you got the right stuff", but if I literally posted links to what I'm intending on buying, would anyone or someone feel comfortable giving the yes or no to what i'm getting?

If anyone finds this inappropriate, let me know please and I'll pull down this post.

So I plan on buying two sets, both of which will be single speed to begin with, hence the lack of braze-ons. I may consider making one a geared bike and adding the appropriate cable stops later.

Tube Set 1:http://bit.ly/1c2zwpV
Seat Stay Caps:http://bit.ly/1kIpRnM x 2
Dropouts:http://bit.ly/1c2zCOh x 2
Seat Stay Break Bridge:http://bit.ly/1ecsws9
Chain Stay Bridge: Intend on buying tube from hardware shop and brazing on myself.

Tube Set 2:http://bit.ly/1bEtQQa
Seat Stay Caps: http://bit.ly/1bEtUzq x 2
Dropouts, SS Bridge, CS Bridge are same as above.

Does this all make sense and seem congruent? Huge thanks in advanced for whoever takes their time to look at these links and give their opinions. Everyone in this forum group has been amazingly supportive considering the amount of nonsense questions i've already asked.

Thanks again!

Gav

Your approach to timing isn't fatal as long as the seat tube is long enough... however I would suggest as others have that a less ambitious set of lugs might be better to start with. Check the other suppliers for tubeset kits also... I think one of them had a $99 complete kit (may not have had dropouts thought) last month.

Secondly, it you are fair new to brazing, I'd recommend looking through the suppliers list for a "beginners kit" which is just a bag stuffed full of tubing cut offs (typically 6-12 inches long) that are really cheap and allow for many trial welds before sacrificing one of your tubesets.

The suppliers sell quite a few chainstay bridge types and styles or you can just get a foot of 3/4" chromolly (perhaps 0.083 or so), but would not recommend using a piece of hardware store pipe.

/K


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