forestine

Yup, that freaks me out, too. I feel pretty vulnerable in the few moments I have to bend down to unlock my bike, but actually riding beats walking at night. You can go faster than some creep on foot. I think it's a combo. Misogynistic bike culture, unsafe places to ride, etc.

Btw, that ridiculous Globe and Mail piece has resulted in a new Twitter hashtag, #wenting.

snow_echo_NY

no need to say "reality check" like this person doesn't know what she's talking about. don't do that. she's saying the public environment for a woman transiting by walking or cycling is much more hostile than for a man. this is true whether you have experienced it or not. do not dismiss it.

if you are traveling with your daughter, most men will not dare to do so. but when she is on her own, it is likely different. i've walked in the neighborhood with my husband at my side and someone catcalled me. my husband barked at him, and he of course ran off laughing. i've experienced it on my own countless times. it's not cool, and not acceptable.

https://www.ihollaback.org/resources/myths/

Statistics ? Stop Street Harassment Studies- Stop Street Harassment

Catcalls and street harassment: Can decency be regulated? | The Economist

Will These Startling New Catcalling Stats Change Anything? | Observer

"No Catcall Zones" Popping Up Around NYC: Gothamist


and finally Argentina is moving to stopping it altogether:

https://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/06...-women/395606/


in big cities, it may sound silly but it's actually a real problem.

so please educate yourself and read the statistics before dismissing women's issues.

snow_echo_NY

thank you for sharing this! this is cool... i hope NYC DOT and various Community Boards pays attention to this...Infrastructure above all else.

Can you imagine? elderly and kids transiting to school because it's actually safe to do so? women are the marker of safe infrastructure - even in NYC, where over 50% cyclists on the hudson greenway are women! that is not a crazy thing to me, but it speaks volumes. maybe citibike and others will pay attention.

Robert C

I am saying it is a people issue, not only a women's issue. To treat crime as, purely, a women's issue is to ignore the majority of the problem.

source, National Institute of Justice

Source: U.S. Department of Justice

. . . good advise


As far as the other issues you named, I do discuss it with my daughter; when in the states we still live together and use bicycles for transportation. She also hits a lot of questionable neighborhoods because she photographs churches (this includes a recent solo bicycle tour from London to Rome); simply, she does not report regular harassment.

I think your mention of Argentina is part of the issue. Most of the year she is not in the US; as such when we both return here (note, we no longer live together in China; we did for a while), the US seems shockingly polite.

jade408

And women are trained from birth that they have to by hyper aware and hyper-vilegent about staying away from any possible dangerous situation, as we will be blamed for it. As a result we are not supposed to stay out late, walk alone after dark and so on.

And you are obviously not a woman, so you haven't felt threatened just going about your daily business. I have been followed, touched, yelled at, cursed at and I know many women who have it much worse than I do!

I get comments about every 1-2 days! Not an unregular occurrence for me. It has little to do with "perceived attractiveness," as women of all shapes, sizes and outfits experience harassment. If I had to ride in certain areas on a regular basis, I'd probably stop!

Lots of street harassment, in addition to being gendered, is race specific too. There is plenty of documented evidence that street harassment looks very different for people perceived as "white" than for people perceived as "non-white" and the viciousness increases as the amount of melanin in your skin does!

I definitely find no fault in a woman not wanting to be "exposed" and out in "public space" due to unwanted attention! Here is a perfect recent runners world article on this topic.

jade408

I think there is maybe 20% truth in that article. I have a friend who not only felt biking was scary, but she hated that "not so fresh feeling." She retired her bike and walks/takes transit instead.

On the other hand, I bike mostly in dresses anyway.

jade408

I wear my helmet selectively. My helmet is poorly ventilated, and I have relaxed hair. So yes, I do not want helmet hair, it is more dire for me than those of you with different hair texture. I am also riding slowly on safe streets, so it doesn't feel risky. I put my helmet on at night. In the daytime on a short ride (1 mile or less) I may not put it on. I keep it in my basket, and evaluate the conditions during the ride.

A few days ago, I took a short ride and was not wearing my helmet. There was a car in the next lane driving strangely, I slowed down as it seemed she wanted to cut me off and turn. Instead, she nearly side swiped me to yell at me to wear a helmet. I was so irritated that she was driving so unsafely to intimidate me. I have on other occasions received lectures from other women about my lack of a helmet. Not sure why people are compelled to mind their own business!

snow_echo_NY

i think we are talking about two different but somewhat related things. you are talking about crimes with victims. we're not talking about that. we're talking about harrassment as related to safety.

perceived lack of safety in public spaces is the issue.

if you want to tie in crime stats, that's different. are these in public spaces? it looks like not. because we're talking about transiting in public spaces, whether walking or bicycling.

Your daughter is than in the less than 1% then to have never had an incident:

"Over 99 percent of the female respondents said they had experienced some form of street harassment (only three women - of 811 female respondents - said they had not)."

79pmooney

This is kind of off topic, but a brilliant suggestion. I will be forever haunted by the screamm of the rider in front of me when he touched the curb in the sprint of a Cat 3 bike race. My buddy went around the course again and described his injury. I have view curbs as serious road hazards to be avoided at all costs since then.

And to get back on topic; making those curbs a little more friendly make the right (in the US) edge of the road more friendly and inviting to those concerned with their own and their kids's safety. Of course it does have the drawback of making driving on the sidewalk much more attractive hence not a blessing for pedestrians.

Ben

snow_echo_NY

that is unfortunate. people have no business telling other people what to do on the road. i'm not one to blast by peds on the road if i have right of way but i've seen people do that. remembering people are just getting around, a little courtesy goes a long way. you're telling her how to drive! how awful. i'm sorry you experienced that.

i'm glad you found a route that is safe and where you can ride with no helmet. and that is smart, evaluating the conditions before riding.

snow_echo_NY

the link i already posted before: Statistics ? Stop Street Harassment Studies- Stop Street Harassment

as for men, there weren't enough men who responded to the survey. it seems it was tilted that way, but that is a great question. i'm wondering are there men harrassed with sexual innuendo in public spaces?

and i'm definitely not saying men are evil, women are victims. i'm saying society tolerates street harrassment and it routinely objectifies women who are going about their daily business. that wears on women when it is daily. and guess what? kids hear it too from a very early age. it's beyond awful.

that is great for your daughter. ignoring it is awesome when it is once or twice in your life time. if it is every.single.day it is not awesome, i assure you.

snow_echo_NY

that is a great thought, i've seen that in NYC here and there but didn't understand it until you explained it. they make those "ramps" rather steep tho so i would think that would discourage cycling on the sidewalk. this would be great for those parents who want to ride with their kids - since kids shouldn't really be in the street, and adults are not allowed to cycle on sidewalks.

it sounds really promising ...!

jade408

At this point I am in my late 30s, and it has been happening since I was about 10....so I am almost 30 years into street harassment. I would love if I found ignoring was a helpful tactic, unfortunately no tactic works consistently. I've tried them all. And all have lead to disastrous results in some cases.

snow_echo_NY

OH geez. since you were 10? holy crap. i suppose i'm glad i grew up in the burbs and i worry about my daughter growing up here.

i've also had some disastrous results. i once had to get a security guard to throw out someone from a bar who threatened me because i refused to notice him, maybe 10 years ago. i was either still in college or just out of college. let me tell you, at that age, you're still a kid. it sickens me that it continues to happen to countless women out there.

snow_echo_NY

so i talked to women in my local cycling women's group about the same stats - citibike membership are a third women and citibike daily trips are a quarter women. many of them mentioned the heaviness of the bike and difficulty controlling it as it's quite unwieldy. i can see that, but these are women that already ride, and they ride their own bikes which provide a far superior riding experience than a citibike.

what about all the women who haven't even tried getting on a bike? i wonder about them and more and more i think the data that's been revealed is correct - that it's due to safety perceptions.

Statistics Library - Safety Statistics Archives | PeopleForBikes

there was a case study that proved men's and women's perceptions of safety differ greatly cited here.
"Men and women’s perceptions of safety and of the feasibility of bicycling differ; women are more sensitive to the absence of bike lanes and trails."

and i think that is true.
if you build the bike lanes, cyclists will come: Citibike to Expand to Jersey City as Hoboken's Bike Share Goes it Alone - WNYC

Jersey City apparently has been getting into cycling and will now open their own bike share system, perhaps teaming up with citibike if it proves successful. the gov officials show no signs of stopping. they've started painting bike lanes on virtually every street and cycling has exploded. they're looking to connect hoboken and weehawken as well.

The number of bikes on the road doesn’t appear to be slowing in either city, though. Business is “booming,” according to Joel Ramos, a bike salesman at Grove Street Bicycles in Jersey City. And when Hoboken began installing new bike racks near the Path station, commuters began chaining up their bikes before builders could finish bolting the racks to the ground.

“It’s literally as we build it, they will come,” said Zimmer.

in my moms and baby groups, moms have been asking about cargo bikes. i'm amazed b/c most of them have not thought about it or asked me about it. they ask each other, am i crazy? i jump in saying, no no no! it's amazing to ride with your kids and get around, do it! and i think moms have it in the family budget to do so. it's just a matter of getting them to even consider it as a possbility.

something inspiring here too, Afghan women, sneaking out to ride:
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallel...reaking-taboos
and Saudi women getting ride, altho still with lots of restrictions:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...lowed-to-cycle

if that part of the world is progressing (unfortunately this is actually called progress, still have a long way to go), with respect to cycling, i'm hopeful.

rydabent

One of the unstated reasons that many wont like me bringing up is the DF bike seat. They do hurt, and many ladies dont like that.

Around Lincoln there are many ladies, including my wife, that think riding a trike is great. You actually see many ladies riding trikes here in Lincoln. Trike are easy to ride, comfortable, and you dont have to worry about falling over.

The barrier is the cost. Even Terratrikes that produce the lowest cost trikes are fairly expensive to buy for a lot of peope.

StanSeven

I don't understand this entire thread? Why single women out as a group? Why not poor, the rich, old, young, business people that need to wear suits, telephone repair people, etc?

snow_echo_NY

because if you notice, there aren't many women, elderly and children cyclists on the roads. it's mostly men. if you look at the Dutch in Amsterdam and the Danish in Copenhagen, women make up more than half the cyclists. it's not like that here in the states. and in the articles we posted, women are more than half the cyclists on the hudson greenway here in NYC and in a park in London. it's not that women don't want to ride, as evidenced by the numbers in these safe-perceived spaces.

(the rich vs poor question is complicated. the ultra rich won't and the poor sometimes won't because it's a sign of poverty and shame for them. we're not going to go into that discussion as their barriers will come down when they see the middle class biking.

also there are several services that have moved away from cars and are servicing on bikes in NYC. they aren't the majority, but it's not uncommon to see them. it makes so much more sense as your travel time is predictable and it's not faster traveling by other means.)

once women are confident that cycling is a safe alternative of getting around, and that they can bring their children along for the ride (see my first post - children are a factor for women opting out of cycling), you are more likely to see more elderly and children riding as well.

bottom line is cycling isn't only for men. it's for everyone and it should be that way - but it's not.
as stated by bicycling magazine, if you can't run b/c the impact on your joints, you can still bike.

women are the next group to convince as they are the largest of the three (women, children, seniors) and they largely impact children's choices.

what can be done to make that happen and break down those barriers?

snow_echo_NY

you're talking about recumbents...those count as bikes! there's a subforum here on bike forums! i would encourage your wife and her friends to join us.

recumbents look super relaxing. i would totally ride one if i were on vacation or something by a beach boardwalk. it does look comfortable! but in traffic when i want visibility (people to see me and me able to see others), being upright makes sense for me. all seats are kind of uncomfortable. i think a cutout is necessary for me, and a women's specific seat helps solve that for me. eh. people talk their whole lives about seats and switching them out, so your wife is definitely not alone!

i have seen several recumbents here in NYC, usually the bridge and the greenway though. it's pretty awesome.

snow_echo_NY

interesting, which cities interceptor?

1nterceptor

In that video; I was in Nanjing. But you also have Beijing, etc.

snow_echo_NY

i just made a local group - a supportive space for moms to discuss cycling around town with the kids. it's so far a hit, just hope we can keep the momentum.

i'm amazed the number of moms who want to get out and about and be active. i hope we see more of this in the future and all across the u.s.

snow_echo_NY

coming back here to state that there are people trying to address street harrassment.

street harrassment is real - this came out in Aug:

Young Men Need to Learn About Street Harassment, Too - CityLab and let me make clear that there are crazies out there who will catcall with your children in tow. that is the disgusting level it goes to.

male feminists speaking up for women's issues are too far and few in between: 4 Times Aziz Ansari Spoke the Feminist Truth About Harassment in His New Special - Mic

we need more men on our side to stand up and say, this isn't right. don't do that to our women.

jade408

100% agreed! A lot of people like to downplay that it happens. I'd also like to see more discussion on how it can be very very different for you, depending on things like ethnicity (or perceived ethnicity), sexual orientation, and gender identity.

Why Our Conversations About Street Harassment Need To Include Trans Women ? Everyday Feminism
A Hollaback Response Video: Women of Color on Street Harassment

cwen05

Chiming in from as a female cyclist in NYC - my commute is pretty short (usually 15-20 min) from work to gym to home, but even that short amount of time is enough to invite jerk side comments from white men. And these comments are in addition to the 'hey baby' cat calling ones. I mean its NYC, so pedestrians definitely have an attitude even when they're the ones talking on their cell phones in the middle of a bike lane, but there's a special sort of self-righteousness a**hole-ness that just seems to come from primarily white men.

For example today, I was in a bike lane, which got shifted over b/c the sidewalk is closed (so bike lane is now sidewalk and police put up plastic barrier to make bike lane). Of course there are pedestrians walking both ways in both lanes, I'm in the outer one, there's a large guy walking smack in the middle, I ring my bell to let him know I'm coming up behind him, and when I pass him, he and a group of other white men who were walking the opposite direction in the inner lane both yell out 'There's a bike lane next to you stupid'. I may not have taken the high road and called them some names...I know comments like that aren't so bad in the grand scheme of bike related altercations, but it is just obnoxious to have to deal with things like that. I often walk in the city as well as bike so I know bikers can be scary and annoying sometimes. But I don't yell at any bikers b/c hey we're all sharing the space. Sometimes I might be a bit of jerk or distracted, and sometimes its somebody else's fault. So you know, don't be so self-righteous about traffic in the city. I just roll my eyes if I get cut off by a biker and carry on but not those white men! And it really is always white people - sometimes it's a woman, thought not usually so obnoxious, but in all my years riding in the city I've yet to encounter this from anyone except white people. The 'white man's burden' instinct is still strong.

Responding to some of the articles on the subject maybe its easier for pedestrians to feel like they can lecture female bikers b/c they may be biking more carefully and thus also more slowly. I bike pretty casually since the distance isn't so long so I'm not usually in a rush, so perhaps my slower speed opens me up to more comments rather than someone cycling a lot faster. There's also the thing about if you act more aggressively on the bike, ironically people might not feel so confident commenting about your biking.

I really enjoy biking, esp in the summer when the subway is disgusting, so I'm slowly trying to get myself to just ignore such pedestrians. But it's hard, esp since women are socialized to engage with other people, even when it's probably better to just ignore them. But on the other hand, why shouldn't I express myself back? Eh, I recently changed routes so maybe I just need to try some other routes and/or times. It's pretty awesome biking after 10pm in lower Manhattan.