Greg Lemond, Greatest Ever?
08-12-15, 08:46 PM
#101
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Again - he overcame adversity through doping. Conclusions by the USADA are that he doped throughout his career...you call that come back? I never said this was your problem - you are the one responding to me. If it's not your problem then quit crying about it lest someone call the waaaahmbulance.
Again, this isn't about other cyclists - pay attention to context. You are using a straw man to avoid confronting the issue.
Right...the core of your argument is vague and nebulous. "Larger picture benefit" and "look what he overcame" don't mean anything. Feel free to make a real argument at any time.
According to what? I've made no comment about myself, so on what grounds do you judge me? Ad hominem attack marks the lack of legitimate argumentation. I.e., you have nothing real to say so you've resorted to name calling. A classic Lance tactic.
Again, this isn't about other cyclists - pay attention to context. You are using a straw man to avoid confronting the issue.
Right...the core of your argument is vague and nebulous. "Larger picture benefit" and "look what he overcame" don't mean anything. Feel free to make a real argument at any time.
According to what? I've made no comment about myself, so on what grounds do you judge me? Ad hominem attack marks the lack of legitimate argumentation. I.e., you have nothing real to say so you've resorted to name calling. A classic Lance tactic.
08-12-15, 09:22 PM
#102
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An estimated 78% of the pro riders dope, so all Armstrong did was level the playing field of the top riders who were all doping. Of course Lance blatantly lied about it, so what?
my girlfriend had a cousin who was a female pro tennis player back in the day (who shall go nameless here) and the pro tennis player cousin wanted me to dope
Did Lemond dope, I have a feeling he did since I had some ties to some of his friends (not to him directly) that said he did but I never saw or heard anything that would be considered damning (or maybe I simply cannot repeat what I know), and this site I'm going to post gives more information about was was eluded to me back then; see: https://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1904.0 Is this info true? I kind of lean in the direction that it is, but you make up your own minds, some of you hold him to be a hero so you'll deny it, whatever makes you feel more comfortable with.
my girlfriend had a cousin who was a female pro tennis player back in the day (who shall go nameless here) and the pro tennis player cousin wanted me to dope
Did Lemond dope, I have a feeling he did since I had some ties to some of his friends (not to him directly) that said he did but I never saw or heard anything that would be considered damning (or maybe I simply cannot repeat what I know), and this site I'm going to post gives more information about was was eluded to me back then; see: https://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1904.0 Is this info true? I kind of lean in the direction that it is, but you make up your own minds, some of you hold him to be a hero so you'll deny it, whatever makes you feel more comfortable with.
08-13-15, 08:44 AM
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08-14-15, 02:10 PM
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Well this thread really lit it up. I call it a success even though there were maybe 2 people who really replied to the original post
08-18-15, 02:01 PM
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Typical silly response for lack of an argument. You accuse me of name calling...then call me a troll? Stay classy, my friend. Oh whoops...I just called you a name. Can you forgive me like you forgive Lance?
08-18-15, 02:19 PM
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Hi everyone. I am only 17, but have admired Greg Lemond for as long as I have known cycling. I have become more and more fascinated by his story as I have grown older and would definitely call him one of my heroes. He overcame so much as a kid that I could never understand, became the first and now only American to win Le Tour, and has stuck up for what he believes in even in the face of threats and ostracization from the cycling community. Is anyone else here a big fan of Greg? If so, why? What's your story?
Bikegolfer, welcome to the sport. I am defintely a Lemond fan. I've been hearing about him since he was junior tearing up NorCal/Nevada senior races. But for his hunting accident, I think his palmares would have been even better than they were, and his actual results are very impressive.
His performance in the 1989 Tour has to rank in the very short list of greatest ever Tour performances ever, not just because of the epic final time trial, but also because of the way he fought and clawed and scratched to stay at or near the top with a weak team against a strong and experiences two-time winner with a much stronger supporting team.
Since he has retired, there have been many times when I wish he would shut up about doping - not because he was wrong, but because he has been singularly tone-deaf about how his comments have the tone of a whiner that often, I think, did more harm than good. I have never questioned his sincerity or his veracity. My issue has not been with what he says, but how he says it. And only the subject of doping - everything else I have read or heard about him makes me think he is a good guy and that it would be great fun to hang with him over dinner or weekend.
I do not, however, think he is/was the best ever. I'm one of those who who believes that there is Eddy Merckx, and then there is everyone else. To me, Greg is in the front row of "everyone else." I would put Fausto Coppi, Gino Bartali, and Bernard Hinault ahead of Greg as all-around great riders. There are number of better classics riders, Rik van Looy, Roger de Vlaeminck, Tom Boonen, and Fabian Cancellara to name a few. Jacques Anquetil was a better time trialist and may have been the best at reading a stage race of anyone. But Lemond absolutely belongs in a discussion of the best riders - plural - of all time. Saying he ranks below Merckx or Coppi is no insult - so was everyone else.
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08-18-15, 03:20 PM
#107
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I guess the Armstrong tactic that "if you repeat lies often enough, than people will think it's true" does work on people.
I have never questioned his sincerity or his veracity. My issue has not been with what he says, but how he says it. And only the subject of doping
- everything else I have read or heard about him makes me think he is a good guy and that it would be great fun to hang with him over dinner or weekend.
08-18-15, 04:03 PM
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That is absolutely inaccurate. If you feel that way, blame the media coverage and character assasination. Lemond has never come at the doping subject as a whiner. He did not pursue that as an agenda at all. Armstrong did a pretty good hatchet job making it seem like Lemond did. Landis trial and subsequent media also did.
I guess the Armstrong tactic that "if you repeat lies often enough, than people will think it's true" does work on people.
I guess the Armstrong tactic that "if you repeat lies often enough, than people will think it's true" does work on people.
On a similar but unrelated topic, his tone regarding the 1986 showdown with Hinault sounded a bit over the top to me at the time also. At the time, I attributed it to the enormous stress of the situation. Now I know that the stress I thought he was under was nothing compared to the stress he was actually under.
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08-18-15, 04:16 PM
#109
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Yeah, no. I respectfully, totally disagree.
He loves the sport and anything he says about it has been true, brave and he has as much right to speak out against doping as anyone.
I've never seen him "self righteous or angry" that was somehow negative. Yeah he was angry and on the defensive with attacks from Armstrong, Floyd and the media but his dialogue was factual and true.
He's not a manicured public figure. These days, i'm glad for it. He's such an American "regular guy" with extraordinary talents. It's something to be proud of.
People love glossy, slick public personas like Armstrong but the real deal has always been Lemond. There are a lot of speaking engagements Lemond has done and he's always factual, clear on the science, his own experience and the sport. Even when EVERYONE was slamming him, he has not changed at all.
He loves the sport and anything he says about it has been true, brave and he has as much right to speak out against doping as anyone.
I've never seen him "self righteous or angry" that was somehow negative. Yeah he was angry and on the defensive with attacks from Armstrong, Floyd and the media but his dialogue was factual and true.
He's not a manicured public figure. These days, i'm glad for it. He's such an American "regular guy" with extraordinary talents. It's something to be proud of.
People love glossy, slick public personas like Armstrong but the real deal has always been Lemond. There are a lot of speaking engagements Lemond has done and he's always factual, clear on the science, his own experience and the sport. Even when EVERYONE was slamming him, he has not changed at all.
08-19-15, 02:28 PM
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On what do you base that claim? If you've read about him, you'd know that he and Andy Hampstem quit at the beginning of the steroid age because, as they put it, "they have drugs that can turn mules into thorobreds." I don't believe he was doping. He was just really talented.
08-19-15, 02:52 PM
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And, your proof of doping is.....?
08-22-15, 01:23 AM
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Someone post about LeMond, and we get 4 pages of Armstrong? Lance Armstrong is a deadbeat, opportunistic POS. After his recovery and fame, he dropped his own wife like a hot potato and moved right on. He wanted fame, and used the ability to spin to get there. Did he cheat? Yes. Did others cheat? Yes. Does that make it ok? Not even a little bit. They don't come down on other cheaters as hard because they lost. Not many people will remember who took 2nd seven times, but if he tests clean... well can u strip a title and not give it to the runner-up?
Lance was cheating before he got ball cancer(my opinion..no citations)... who's to say the drug regimens he was using didn't affect that outcome? On the upside.. he had too much upper body, and his cancer therapy turned him from a triathlete to a biker by eating away all that superfluous muscle. I don't believe he would have ever been a great rider without cheating, and I guess we'll never know. What he did to cover it up... I'll be honest - it would have been way more impressive to see him lose trying than to know he cheated.
Lance Armstrong did everything he did for fame and money. Greg LeMond, I don't know his motivation...but he had a passion for bicycling. He became fluent in French, because he needed to in order to pursue his sport. LeMond is the greatest American bicyclist in the last 50 years. Armstrong should be sitting in a prison. A comparison between the two is moot.
Lance was cheating before he got ball cancer(my opinion..no citations)... who's to say the drug regimens he was using didn't affect that outcome? On the upside.. he had too much upper body, and his cancer therapy turned him from a triathlete to a biker by eating away all that superfluous muscle. I don't believe he would have ever been a great rider without cheating, and I guess we'll never know. What he did to cover it up... I'll be honest - it would have been way more impressive to see him lose trying than to know he cheated.
Lance Armstrong did everything he did for fame and money. Greg LeMond, I don't know his motivation...but he had a passion for bicycling. He became fluent in French, because he needed to in order to pursue his sport. LeMond is the greatest American bicyclist in the last 50 years. Armstrong should be sitting in a prison. A comparison between the two is moot.
08-22-15, 07:44 AM
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Okay, back to our regular programming.
Bikegolfer, welcome to the sport. I am defintely a Lemond fan. I've been hearing about him since he was junior tearing up NorCal/Nevada senior races. But for his hunting accident, I think his palmares would have been even better than they were, and his actual results are very impressive.
His performance in the 1989 Tour has to rank in the very short list of greatest ever Tour performances ever, not just because of the epic final time trial, but also because of the way he fought and clawed and scratched to stay at or near the top with a weak team against a strong and experiences two-time winner with a much stronger supporting team.
Since he has retired, there have been many times when I wish he would shut up about doping - not because he was wrong, but because he has been singularly tone-deaf about how his comments have the tone of a whiner that often, I think, did more harm than good. I have never questioned his sincerity or his veracity. My issue has not been with what he says, but how he says it. And only the subject of doping - everything else I have read or heard about him makes me think he is a good guy and that it would be great fun to hang with him over dinner or weekend.
I do not, however, think he is/was the best ever. I'm one of those who who believes that there is Eddy Merckx, and then there is everyone else. To me, Greg is in the front row of "everyone else." I would put Fausto Coppi, Gino Bartali, and Bernard Hinault ahead of Greg as all-around great riders. There are number of better classics riders, Rik van Looy, Roger de Vlaeminck, Tom Boonen, and Fabian Cancellara to name a few. Jacques Anquetil was a better time trialist and may have been the best at reading a stage race of anyone. But Lemond absolutely belongs in a discussion of the best riders - plural - of all time. Saying he ranks below Merckx or Coppi is no insult - so was everyone else.
Bikegolfer, welcome to the sport. I am defintely a Lemond fan. I've been hearing about him since he was junior tearing up NorCal/Nevada senior races. But for his hunting accident, I think his palmares would have been even better than they were, and his actual results are very impressive.
His performance in the 1989 Tour has to rank in the very short list of greatest ever Tour performances ever, not just because of the epic final time trial, but also because of the way he fought and clawed and scratched to stay at or near the top with a weak team against a strong and experiences two-time winner with a much stronger supporting team.
Since he has retired, there have been many times when I wish he would shut up about doping - not because he was wrong, but because he has been singularly tone-deaf about how his comments have the tone of a whiner that often, I think, did more harm than good. I have never questioned his sincerity or his veracity. My issue has not been with what he says, but how he says it. And only the subject of doping - everything else I have read or heard about him makes me think he is a good guy and that it would be great fun to hang with him over dinner or weekend.
I do not, however, think he is/was the best ever. I'm one of those who who believes that there is Eddy Merckx, and then there is everyone else. To me, Greg is in the front row of "everyone else." I would put Fausto Coppi, Gino Bartali, and Bernard Hinault ahead of Greg as all-around great riders. There are number of better classics riders, Rik van Looy, Roger de Vlaeminck, Tom Boonen, and Fabian Cancellara to name a few. Jacques Anquetil was a better time trialist and may have been the best at reading a stage race of anyone. But Lemond absolutely belongs in a discussion of the best riders - plural - of all time. Saying he ranks below Merckx or Coppi is no insult - so was everyone else.
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