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What Comes After Carbon Fiber?

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What Comes After Carbon Fiber?

Old 08-12-15, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by IcySmooth52
I bet an epoxy without fibers will be next because it would be soooo easy to produce. (Not that it would be better)
Anything is possible but, the fabric probably has a similar weight to the epoxy & an insane amount of strength, in comparison
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Old 08-12-15, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean
No other reason than that and the fact that many of us like to go faster, further, and easier on bikes that are lighter and more reliable. I know what I was riding in the 70s and 80s, and I know what I'm riding now. Now is better.

FWIW, on the farm we had a crew boss who worked for my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father, and my brother and I. He grew up clearing stumps out of a field and plowing one row at a time with a mule. When he was 73 years old. we upgraded our equipment from 8 row to 12 row (major change - cutting edge technology at the time), we gave him the newest tractor and let him spend the first day in the field with the new equipment. I'll never forget the big smile on his face at the end of the day when he climbed down from the tractor - "Fellas, anyone who tells you about the good old days is full of it. THESE are the good old days (his version was more colorful than that, but you get the idea)!"

I get that reverse snobbery is strong in cycling, and I get that lots of people like their steel framed vintage bikes. My own around town bike is an early 1980s Univega MTB (cutting edge technology when I bought it). But don't think that those of us who push the limits of our own abilities and our equipment's performance are all a bunch of vain fools. Tech that doesn't work doesn't last, wnd what gets adopted is what works. We're riding newer bikes because the newer bikes are better suited to what we're doing.

Horses for courses.

BB
top of the line racing machines are great pieces of advancement. Shifting from the handlebars, material strength in all the right places. In a serious race, you really can't beat that stuff. However, a steel, aluminum or Ti frame can all go to the recycler & be put back into the system. I certainly have no qualms about my love for the steel bike & its advantages but...it would be nice to see a material that wasn't just trash when it was no longer serviceable. We are headed down a dark path & it seems that every industry favors the dollar over what we have left of the earth. I'll also be the first to say that Bamboo is silly. Metals come with an impact, as well. But, I think we'd all be a little bit happier to see great minds build great product with a conscience.
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Old 08-12-15, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SundayNiagara
Some sort of 3-D printing?
That's what I'm thinking. It won't be the material per se, but the design. Making complex inner geometries, and fusing different materials at different locations will change things. Imagine being able to build a tube with internal structure that is impossible to machine. Or having a tube that is part steel, part aluminum, part titanium, all in the right places. This is all possible, and in the early stages of development. (And some aren't even that early in the development.)
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Old 08-12-15, 06:12 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Like the CF $16,000 Trek Madone????
You're suggesting it cost $8000 to build? I'd bet a thousand, tops. The market has gone nuts & trek supplies a lot of team bikes. I wonder where all of that profit goes?
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Old 08-12-15, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean
I love it when people who don't race feel comfortable passing judgement on what might or might not be meaningless to someone who actually races. It reminds me of when people who don't farm tell us what will or won't work on our farm.

BB
I built a 17lb lugged steel bike & still had room to cut weight. I do get your point, though. & I think the reference still has some validity. Truth told, tech sells. Especially in cycling. A certain demographic of people will pay to have what is thought to be "the best of the best". Current market pricing certainly reflects that. I wonder what one major magazine review can do to sales? Even if it's just propaganda. Not all is but, certainly a good portion of advertising in review, is.
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Old 08-12-15, 06:44 PM
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IMO CF or more rightly put plastic bikes are all the rage right now. But----------------------there are still a lot of steel bikes that are more than 50 years old and still very serviceable. Lets wait and see how serviceable a 50 year old plastic bike turns out to be. The fact is plastic doesnt age well. Of all the materials that bike frames are made out of I favor titanium. A titanium bike quality built is pretty much timeless.
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Old 08-12-15, 06:58 PM
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me today i go for ride with my steel bike. I have 53/39 crank and 9 speeds cassete. 12-25. The trail is hilly short steep hills but have downhill too. On the flats i do okay i do many times 16-17 miles. But when the hills come even some not so steep my speed is drop much in steep hill my speed is go down to 5 miles. I deside 3 times go down and walk little. I should try bigger cassete like 11-28? Or 12-30? I know because i be bussy i have stop ride for almost 4 years. Today i do 20 miles in that hilly trail.
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Old 08-12-15, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Stucky
So eggsplain it to me: How is anything like that meaningful to you as a racer, once everybody is riding the same technology? I was under the impression that it was more about the athlete and his condition/abilities- rather than seeing who could afford/come up with the slickest equipment that would give them a slight advantage, until all of their competitors acquiared the same equipment.
First things first. It doesn't matter if you race. It is enough to simply enjoy going fast. We all come to cycling for our own personal reasons. If speed isn't one of your reasons, there's no need to be concerned with speed. If it is, you're going to do what you have to do to get fast.

Now, that said, if you are racing, and races are often decided by fractions of a second, why on earth would you pass on technology that could make you a fraction of a second faster? While it is true that strategy and fitness are larger factors than equipment, it is also true that most everyone in a race is at a similar level of fitness.

Crux of the matter is that anything that can make you faster is something you're interested in if you want to be competitive. Tha means training, strategizing, and using the best gear you can afford.

Is any of that really not obvious?
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Old 08-12-15, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean
First things first. It doesn't matter if you race. It is enough to simply enjoy going fast. We all come to cycling for our own personal reasons. If speed isn't one of your reasons, there's no need to be concerned with speed. If it is, you're going to do what you have to do to get fast.

Now, that said, if you are racing, and races are often decided by fractions of a second, why on earth would you pass on technology that could make you a fraction of a second faster? While it is true that strategy and fitness are larger factors than equipment, it is also true that most everyone in a race is at a similar level of fitness.

Crux of the matter is that anything that can make you faster is something you're interested in if you want to be competitive. Tha means training, strategizing, and using the best gear you can afford.

Is any of that really not obvious?
Me like go fast too

Me go no faster on fancy CF 17 lb. Venge than on 19 lb. 18 year-old aluminum Klein.

Now you tell me, me can be faster on 15 lb. 007 Sharper Image mylar bike?

Me no think so!

Me be faster if take big dump before ride, or if ride more. Spend more clams no make me go faster.

Grunt! Grunt!
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Old 08-12-15, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FrozenK
Carbon fiber production is very labor intensive. And it is also very demanding in the QC department. Developing molds is very expensive. While, yes producing CF in China is cheaper than in the US due to the low labor cost carbon fiber is still expensive to produce.

Metal bikes (aluminum and steel) are dirt cheap to produce. Which is why you see metal and not carbon at Walmart. The reason carbon is taking over is because it is a wonderful material to make bikes with. Easily shaped into complex shapes with anisotropic properties. Great weight/stiffness ratio, vibration dampening... and with China's low labor it can be built to prices competitive with metal. It isn't because carbon is cheaper to make, it is because it works better.

Yea but you miss the mass manufacturing point.

You make a mold...and you go to town pumping out frames, the instant you have the tooling down. Further you save money by outsourcing the tooling and cooking to some sweatshop in China. How long do you think it takes to break even on expenses when people are loony enough to blow $10,000 on a plastic off-the-shelf mass-produced frame from China?

And yes, they are cheaper to make. And "it works better" speaks volumes about placebo effect.
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Old 08-12-15, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Yea but you miss the mass manufacturing point.

You make a mold...and you go to town pumping out frames, the instant you have the tooling down. Further you save money by outsourcing the tooling and cooking to some sweatshop in China. How long do you think it takes to break even on expenses when people are loony enough to blow $10,000 on a plastic off-the-shelf mass-produced frame from China?

And yes, they are cheaper to make. And "it works better" speaks volumes about placebo effect.
The cost of the mold is only part of it. The production cost comes also from the very labor intensive process of laying up the carbon. Then you have to make sure it is laid up properly, etc... it ain't cheap. Cetainly not cheaper than welding a frame. Again, there is a reason low end bikes have steel and aluminum frames. If you want to lie to yourself and claim that it is all placebo effect and bike industry fooling people, go to town.
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Old 08-12-15, 10:09 PM
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I actually wonder why cheaper bikes are still made of steel and aluminum, and not injection molded FRP, either with fiberglass or carbon fiber. Lots of other things are.
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Old 08-12-15, 11:06 PM
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I could imagine combining 3D printing and weaving to build a very strong Carbon Fiber reinforced custom part to spec without a mold.
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Old 08-12-15, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
I actually wonder why cheaper bikes are still made of steel and aluminum, and not injection molded FRP, either with fiberglass or carbon fiber. Lots of other things are.
I'm not sure pure plastic will be widely accepted by the bike community, although more and more plastic is slowly creeping into our bikes.

There also seems to be a mentality of a frame that will last forever, built up with disposable parts.

Also, strength, flex, and fatigue, thus carbon fiber reinforced plastics for better structural properties.
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Old 08-13-15, 06:49 AM
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So much BS sputed by some in here.

I heard the F1 cars are mostly made out of carbon fiber due to its cheapness and ability to be mass produced in China. The qualities of the material are, of course, totally irrelevant.
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Old 08-13-15, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Belly
Anything is possible but, the fabric probably has a similar weight to the epoxy & an insane amount of strength, in comparison
I'm sure solely an epoxy frame wouldn't be as good as a carbon fiber frame. It would just be a cheaper way to make a bike frame that looks cool, and it would sell.

Obviously not as good in possible performance as carbon fiber. Just a new tool for marketing that has even greater profit margins!
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Old 08-14-15, 11:04 AM
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I think I've discovered what comes "after" carbon fiber. Arguments about steel vs. plastic bikes is what comes after CF.
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