Why is it so important to you personally support the LBS
08-17-15, 01:51 PM
#76
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You mised my point about laws, they are just paper unless some enforcing body chooses to enfore them. Then the accused has their day in court.
Apple computer products is a good example. Want a deal on one? About the only way is educators price, buy it at PX, VA where you do not pay tax. Other wise price appear fixed.
Apple computer products is a good example. Want a deal on one? About the only way is educators price, buy it at PX, VA where you do not pay tax. Other wise price appear fixed.
Buying a new iphone today costs the same as buying the same phone on the release day.
If Apple was price fixing, they'd limit the number of phones released on release day and charge a higher cost that day. As more phones enter the market, that cost would drop.
"Price fixing" and selling items only at MSRP are two completely different things.
08-17-15, 01:58 PM
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I drive 40 minutes one way to my "L"BS just due to the level of service (pre and post) that they provide.
I don't always buy from them, but I do drop a fair amount of dinero in there every year. Just bought a MTB bike from them Friday.
I have a LBS in town. I do the group rides there, get tubes, bar tape, that kind of thing there. The shop is run by a very nice guy, but unfortunately the owner has never treated me very well in the past, so I drive to those that do.
I don't always buy from them, but I do drop a fair amount of dinero in there every year. Just bought a MTB bike from them Friday.
I have a LBS in town. I do the group rides there, get tubes, bar tape, that kind of thing there. The shop is run by a very nice guy, but unfortunately the owner has never treated me very well in the past, so I drive to those that do.
08-17-15, 02:14 PM
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The lbs is a couple miles down the street from me. I can also touch product and see it in person and they can fix a problem if it arises. These are reasons why I support lbs
08-17-15, 02:23 PM
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1) I generally like my LBS. Not as much as I did the one that went out of business (unrelated to their sales, service, etc)
2) The people who work there are my friends
3) The host group rides
4) I get a discount
5) I'll support something local over a big box store any day
6) It is not just a place to buy stuff, it is a place I want to go and hang out. They have a beer fridge and a turn table
7) Apart from serious group rides, they do a vintage bike pub crawl once a month.
8) The people I see shopping there are typically people I end up riding with. I like riding buddies
9) The more people that can get into a bike shop and buying bikes = more people on the roads on bikes
10) Bicycle advocacy starts at bike shops, usually.
2) The people who work there are my friends
3) The host group rides
4) I get a discount
5) I'll support something local over a big box store any day
6) It is not just a place to buy stuff, it is a place I want to go and hang out. They have a beer fridge and a turn table
7) Apart from serious group rides, they do a vintage bike pub crawl once a month.
8) The people I see shopping there are typically people I end up riding with. I like riding buddies
9) The more people that can get into a bike shop and buying bikes = more people on the roads on bikes
10) Bicycle advocacy starts at bike shops, usually.
One of these shops supports Cycle Oregon. One of their mechanics at my first Cycle Oregon gave me a seatpost after I broke mine so i could finish the ride. That post stayed on my bike almost a year. Another shop, now semi-closed, used to frequently order me parts. If there was a question on the parts, the gal ordering would call me, ask her boss or other sources to see to it I got what I wanted and needed. Several steps beyond, several times.
Note that all of these brought in zero money for those shops (except the one ordering the parts and those weren't big money items). Zero. But those actions have been such a boost for my cycling life if I buy some parts at MSRP, I am still coming out WAY AHEAD! (Knee surgery = how many groupsets?)
Ben
08-17-15, 02:43 PM
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Apple is an entirely different kettle of fish. They own their own retail arm. Even the Apple "stores" at Best Buy and colleges are Apple owned. There ARE Apple resellers - but they typically are selling their services and the hardware is an aside - and the prices are still controlled by Apple.
08-17-15, 03:06 PM
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1. The need for local assembly / adjustment / repair services.
2. That the major manufacturers will not permit their bicycles to be sold online.
Other than that they would go the way of most book, camera and hobby shops - just to name a few categories that have been very hard hit by web commerce.
08-17-15, 03:13 PM
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Actually that's called restraint of trade and the fact that it is against the law in no way prevents it from happening. Luxury goods makers who do not want to see their brand image lessened by discounting have many avenues open to them to discourage the practice. Orders are held up, paperwork misplaced, popular items are routinely "backordered".
08-17-15, 03:23 PM
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It's not actually illegal for manufactures to impose price constraints (though it ought to be).
"Limitations on how or where a dealer may sell a product (that is, customer or territory restrictions) are generally legal — if they are imposed by a manufacturer acting on its own." FTC Manufacturer-imposed requirements
They also try to control distribution channels by limiting who you can sell to.
Fortunately it seems like there's always someone finding a way around it aka "grey market".
"Limitations on how or where a dealer may sell a product (that is, customer or territory restrictions) are generally legal — if they are imposed by a manufacturer acting on its own." FTC Manufacturer-imposed requirements
They also try to control distribution channels by limiting who you can sell to.
Fortunately it seems like there's always someone finding a way around it aka "grey market".
08-17-15, 03:25 PM
#84
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There are only two things protecting the LBS:
1. The need for local assembly / adjustment / repair services.
2. That the major manufacturers will not permit their bicycles to be sold online.
Other than that they would go the way of most book, camera and hobby shops - just to name a few categories that have been very hard hit by web commerce.
1. The need for local assembly / adjustment / repair services.
2. That the major manufacturers will not permit their bicycles to be sold online.
Other than that they would go the way of most book, camera and hobby shops - just to name a few categories that have been very hard hit by web commerce.
Well you are correct about book, camera, and hobby shops most are closed. When I made my living as a snapper, I had five accounts with photography support businesses in Sacramento.
One was a professional black & white lab, one was a professional color C-41, and E-6 lab. the other 3 three sold filme, cameras, lighting equipment.
Most of the dollars I spent ever month were with a place in NYC. The reason was price, they had item i need in stock, and could get it to me faster than the local who had to order stuff, then play the waiting game.
There will alway be LBS's just like there are Barns & Noble. But for the LBS to survive it needs do creative things out of the ordinary to stick out, and want people to do business with them.
Poor customer service, and not treating every potential customer coming threw the door with a greeting like good morning, can I help you find anything, or are you looking for anything special? That cost nothing, but ignoring people chases em away.
08-17-15, 03:30 PM
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Actually that's called restraint of trade and the fact that it is against the law in no way prevents it from happening. Luxury goods makers who do not want to see their brand image lessened by discounting have many avenues open to them to discourage the practice. Orders are held up, paperwork misplaced, popular items are routinely "backordered".
There is a web-site selling the "O" Brand Glasses, and it sure looks like they are an Oakley Outlet selling over runs.
Oakley Vault - Men's & Women's Sunglasses, Goggles, & Apparel
Not the real deal, counterfits. DO NOT deal with them, you were warned.
08-17-15, 03:38 PM
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I order everything online from parts , tires and the whole bike from UK . It is alot cheaper from UK online shops then is from the LBS . I can get a cont GP4000s from UK at $50 whereas it will costs me $75 here at LBS . I got my Colnago EP with Campy Chorus group set from UK which cost $2000 less then from LBS . Tell me once again why I should support my LBS . As for bike repair there is this guy who runs mobile bike repair shop out of his truck . One phone call away he will at your door next day ready to work . I don't even have to leave the house to get my bike fix and how cool is that .
08-17-15, 03:39 PM
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Apple is an entirely different kettle of fish. They own their own retail arm. Even the Apple "stores" at Best Buy and colleges are Apple owned. There ARE Apple resellers - but they typically are selling their services and the hardware is an aside - and the prices are still controlled by Apple.
As I said you want an Apple Watch XYZ Model you pay the same price for it every where. Apple don't own Wal-Mart but the product is the same price. Work for Wal-Mart you get employee pricing. Have access to a milkitary base, or VA Hospital canteern They sell Apple at the same price but no sales tax.
08-17-15, 04:43 PM
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There are only two things protecting the LBS:
1. The need for local assembly / adjustment / repair services.
2. That the major manufacturers will not permit their bicycles to be sold online.
Other than that they would go the way of most book, camera and hobby shops - just to name a few categories that have been very hard hit by web commerce.
1. The need for local assembly / adjustment / repair services.
2. That the major manufacturers will not permit their bicycles to be sold online.
Other than that they would go the way of most book, camera and hobby shops - just to name a few categories that have been very hard hit by web commerce.
I can see legions of [retiree] bicycle mechanics working out of their garages and trucks. That could even be promoted/coordinated via a Web Site like Angie's list or even just Craig's list.
You may be right! NOT a pleasant thought IMHO. Although I accept the fact that we could see the end of the LBS.... I don't like the idea. And I refuse to believe that there isn't marketable cycling related services that have yet to be exploited.
08-17-15, 04:48 PM
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tl;dr
My $.02 on the subject. I've been building bikes for an LBS for the past couple months,and have found numerous issues on brand new bikes that would be serious problems for anyone who isn't an experienced wrench with all the proper tools. You'd be surprised how often we pull out the hammer. Also note the fact that it's common for bikes to get messed up in shipping. Buying from an LBS means not having to deal with shipping and warranty claims right off the bat. Finally,shops have parts that you can buy now. You can get what you need on the way home from work rather than waiting days or paying extra for express shipping.
My $.02 on the subject. I've been building bikes for an LBS for the past couple months,and have found numerous issues on brand new bikes that would be serious problems for anyone who isn't an experienced wrench with all the proper tools. You'd be surprised how often we pull out the hammer. Also note the fact that it's common for bikes to get messed up in shipping. Buying from an LBS means not having to deal with shipping and warranty claims right off the bat. Finally,shops have parts that you can buy now. You can get what you need on the way home from work rather than waiting days or paying extra for express shipping.
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08-17-15, 04:56 PM
#90
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I crashed on Saturday and wanted to do another ride on Sunday. I am glad there were three bike shops nearby where I could try on helmets and buy one without having to wait several days for delivery.
08-17-15, 04:57 PM
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So.... maybe all it might take to lose our LBS's would be one major big box store to get a handful of big name bicycle makers to sign-on with them. I can see that happening following a couple bad sales years for bike makers.
I can see legions of [retiree] bicycle mechanics working out of their garages and trucks. That could even be promoted/coordinated via a Web Site like Angie's list or even just Craig's list.
You may be right! NOT a pleasant thought IMHO. Although I accept the fact that we could see the end of the LBS.... I don't like the idea. And I refuse to believe that there isn't marketable cycling related services that have yet to be exploited.
I can see legions of [retiree] bicycle mechanics working out of their garages and trucks. That could even be promoted/coordinated via a Web Site like Angie's list or even just Craig's list.
You may be right! NOT a pleasant thought IMHO. Although I accept the fact that we could see the end of the LBS.... I don't like the idea. And I refuse to believe that there isn't marketable cycling related services that have yet to be exploited.
I explored the idea of working out of my garage or pickup when I first retired doing tune ups, trueing wheels, and maybe selling accessory as a convience to compliment the service work.
First thing I checked into was getting business insurance & yes it was available. Then I sat down with paper & pencil and did all the math to see if this could be done in the black.
Bottom line was the cost of insurance did not justify the liability, or return on time & effort. When you fix someones bicycle you better be dearn good, have great insurance, if you own a home, have a mbank account, pension, 401K, as if you mess up you might have nothing.
08-17-15, 05:07 PM
#92
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Having sold printing supplies for a few years until the company I work for went belly because of poor management, the owner son in law spending away all the profits, and because the cheaper was cheaper, had items in stock, and provided fast delivery.
I soon learned my customer base had NO loyalty to me or GBW the company I worked for. They would buy from the competation over a 1/2 cent difference on a box of 100 print plates. We would big equiptmet to the State, Counties, Cities, School Districts. Many time loosing or getting a big over pocket change.
The one thing we offered was Letter Press Supplies, and most of Northern CA call us as we were had the larges supply.
I hear these words about support the LBS, and honestly most of my LBS's sell at list. Wal-Mart, Nashbar, Colorado Cyclist Performance have things I need. Plus their prices are better, I only have to wait a few day, and the item come to my PO Box.
Point is my customer when I was selling priniting supplies only cared about price, service, deliver time, and many use to call my boss for technicial advice. That he offered very freely, and many of these places gave us pennies of the dollar they spent on supplies.
Honestly if the LBS's wish to survive in 2015 with the internet, dealer in the UK. They better fighure out how to compete, or they will be gone like GBW, or a bike shop down the road from me that closed 4 months ago or so.
I soon learned my customer base had NO loyalty to me or GBW the company I worked for. They would buy from the competation over a 1/2 cent difference on a box of 100 print plates. We would big equiptmet to the State, Counties, Cities, School Districts. Many time loosing or getting a big over pocket change.
The one thing we offered was Letter Press Supplies, and most of Northern CA call us as we were had the larges supply.
I hear these words about support the LBS, and honestly most of my LBS's sell at list. Wal-Mart, Nashbar, Colorado Cyclist Performance have things I need. Plus their prices are better, I only have to wait a few day, and the item come to my PO Box.
Point is my customer when I was selling priniting supplies only cared about price, service, deliver time, and many use to call my boss for technicial advice. That he offered very freely, and many of these places gave us pennies of the dollar they spent on supplies.
Honestly if the LBS's wish to survive in 2015 with the internet, dealer in the UK. They better fighure out how to compete, or they will be gone like GBW, or a bike shop down the road from me that closed 4 months ago or so.
Hey sorry about your personal experiences as a person who worked under bad management but to come to a cycling forum and degrade the good cycling businesses of many of our members is not something that will be tolerated.
There's a reason they survive. It's called proper business protocol. And what is going on here in this thread is not that.
We appreciate not seeing these kinds of insults to the members of this community.
Thank you.
08-17-15, 05:32 PM
#93
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Why is it so important to you personally support the LBS?
It's not important to me.
We can get what we want less expensively, more conveniently, and quicker when we order online.
But you're right that LBSs need to step up their game ... a lot.
And where their focus needs to be is on the areas where online shopping can't compete ... service. In person, hands on, practical service.
I'm talking about things like the bicycle mechanics area. Someone buys the whatever online ... the shop offers the service of putting it together, or repairing it or whatever. Your bicycle needs repair, the shop has an excellent reputation for doing a really good job.
I'm also talking about things like teaching and training ... hold courses on mechanics. One of the shops in a city where I used to live held a 12 week course on bicycle mechanics. I really wanted to take it but just couldn't get there because of time conflicts ... but the very fact that they did that meant that I cycled 50 km to the other side of the city to shop in that shop from time to time.
I'm also talking about general customer service online and in the shop.
Most shops have an online presence, and most people are online now. So when someone emails asking about a product or any other question, answer it within 24 hours.
And when a customer is in the shop ... well, let's just say that most bicycles shops I've been in desperately need to take an intensive and extensive customer service course. I've worked in retail and I have taken many customer service courses, and most shops fall over badly when it comes to their customer service. If I did the stuff they did in the places I've worked, my boss would have had the "pull up your socks or you're out of here" talk with me.
But unfortunately, bicycle shop owners won't read a post like this ... and so they'll continue with the old traditional bad service + "we can order that for you and get it within 6 weeks" combo they're currently using.
It's not important to me.
We can get what we want less expensively, more conveniently, and quicker when we order online.
But you're right that LBSs need to step up their game ... a lot.
And where their focus needs to be is on the areas where online shopping can't compete ... service. In person, hands on, practical service.
I'm talking about things like the bicycle mechanics area. Someone buys the whatever online ... the shop offers the service of putting it together, or repairing it or whatever. Your bicycle needs repair, the shop has an excellent reputation for doing a really good job.
I'm also talking about things like teaching and training ... hold courses on mechanics. One of the shops in a city where I used to live held a 12 week course on bicycle mechanics. I really wanted to take it but just couldn't get there because of time conflicts ... but the very fact that they did that meant that I cycled 50 km to the other side of the city to shop in that shop from time to time.
I'm also talking about general customer service online and in the shop.
Most shops have an online presence, and most people are online now. So when someone emails asking about a product or any other question, answer it within 24 hours.
And when a customer is in the shop ... well, let's just say that most bicycles shops I've been in desperately need to take an intensive and extensive customer service course. I've worked in retail and I have taken many customer service courses, and most shops fall over badly when it comes to their customer service. If I did the stuff they did in the places I've worked, my boss would have had the "pull up your socks or you're out of here" talk with me.
But unfortunately, bicycle shop owners won't read a post like this ... and so they'll continue with the old traditional bad service + "we can order that for you and get it within 6 weeks" combo they're currently using.
I've been in a lot of shops in various parts of the world, and the bad service isn't localised to one area ... it's everywhere. And yet I think that shops have potential because they can do things that online shops can't do. I'd really like to see them making an effort to do those things.
There are a lot of good reasons to support LBS/LRS listed above, but I am a minority Athena and I have always been treated like a joke in Every. Single. Shop. I've ever been to. I hate it, and it makes me not even want to go in to "look around". I would rather pay more at a chain or online, and as impatient as I am, I'd also prefer waiting on shipping than to be humiliated and treated like that. I thought moving from a ridiculously racist area/state to a more "diverse" area would change things but nope, same ****, different city. No matter how much research I do, how much or how little I say, it doesn't matter.
For those of you who fit the demographic, get good service/sponsorship/conversation, then great-keep supporting. But for me? No thanks.
For those of you who fit the demographic, get good service/sponsorship/conversation, then great-keep supporting. But for me? No thanks.
So one of the first areas of service would be to recognise that people of all genders, shapes, sizes, ages, etc. etc. ride bicycles and deserve to be treated with respect. It comes down to that customer service training I keep talking about.
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