Help with frame failure and unresponsive Brand
12-09-15, 08:56 PM
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Help with frame failure and unresponsive Brand
Hi y'all-
I have been commuting on an SE Stout for about 3.5 years. I tis a 6-7 mile ride each way from Park Slope in Brooklyn, to downtown Manhattan, across the Manhattan bridge. Not many tweaks to this 29er- I added a 9 gear SRAM derailleur and changed the brakes to Avid Disc brakes. It is big and on the heavy side, but a good NYC city ride- safe, resilient and fairly responsive. About 5 weeks ago, I got home and noticed flex in the seat post., Thinking there was a loose clamp I checked it and found the frame had cracked at the solder joint where the seat tube, and the top tube join. I immediately contacted both SE bikes, and the dealer. SE states in their website that they offer a lifetime warrantee on their bikes. I have been in contact with the dealer (who clearly describes their role as facilitator of the warranty with the manufacturer). SE bikes dropped communications with me after 2 weeks. I have experienced nothing but radio silence from them. They requested photos, including serial number, as well as contact with the dealer. I provided all of the above. The dealer says they are also waiting for a response from SE bikes.
At this point it seems that SE bikes is trying to weasel out of the warrantee. No answer, no reply to my weekly emails. Is there anything I can do to get SE to honor the warrantee? I find this outrageous that a lifetime warrantee is meaningless when clearly confronted with a faulty product.
I have been commuting on an SE Stout for about 3.5 years. I tis a 6-7 mile ride each way from Park Slope in Brooklyn, to downtown Manhattan, across the Manhattan bridge. Not many tweaks to this 29er- I added a 9 gear SRAM derailleur and changed the brakes to Avid Disc brakes. It is big and on the heavy side, but a good NYC city ride- safe, resilient and fairly responsive. About 5 weeks ago, I got home and noticed flex in the seat post., Thinking there was a loose clamp I checked it and found the frame had cracked at the solder joint where the seat tube, and the top tube join. I immediately contacted both SE bikes, and the dealer. SE states in their website that they offer a lifetime warrantee on their bikes. I have been in contact with the dealer (who clearly describes their role as facilitator of the warranty with the manufacturer). SE bikes dropped communications with me after 2 weeks. I have experienced nothing but radio silence from them. They requested photos, including serial number, as well as contact with the dealer. I provided all of the above. The dealer says they are also waiting for a response from SE bikes.
At this point it seems that SE bikes is trying to weasel out of the warrantee. No answer, no reply to my weekly emails. Is there anything I can do to get SE to honor the warrantee? I find this outrageous that a lifetime warrantee is meaningless when clearly confronted with a faulty product.
12-09-15, 09:04 PM
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Send them a registered letter, return receipt requested, to their corporate office including a precise description, photos, copies of receipts, statements from the dealer, and whatever else you have to make the case. Then they won't be able to deny having the info.
After that ... emails, phone calls, etc until you get fed up and send another registered letter suggesting that they are in default and in a precarious legal position.
After that ... emails, phone calls, etc until you get fed up and send another registered letter suggesting that they are in default and in a precarious legal position.
12-09-15, 09:24 PM
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Got the receipt? Many of them are very specific about having the receipt.
Good luck and don't get discouraged. Hopefully they're just busy during the holiday season.
Good luck and don't get discouraged. Hopefully they're just busy during the holiday season.
12-09-15, 09:30 PM
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And after all this fails, as it will, hire a $300/hour law firm to attack and get your frame replaced. Or...go get another bike.
12-09-15, 09:37 PM
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Used frames are easy to find. If it looks like a long and drawn out battle, I would switch everything over the another frame.
Even if the manufacturer replaces the frame, most likely the warranty says labor costs are yours.
Even if the manufacturer replaces the frame, most likely the warranty says labor costs are yours.
12-09-15, 09:39 PM
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This exact type of failure isn't at all rare. It's caused by unmatched flex properties between the post and frame.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
12-09-15, 10:03 PM
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If they are planning to just flat refuse to talk to you, all you can realistically do is load their website and every cycling-related website with warnings about how they are (insert characterization here.) Challenging them in court ... only the lawyers win.
Hopefully they will respond if you push a little--or maybe they will take an "Eff U2" attitude.
CalimariChris has the best advice.
12-09-15, 10:17 PM
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Unless they respond with a clear explanation why this isn't a warranty, consider going to small claims court.
The rules and costs vary by state and local jurisdiction, but it's always a relatively simple, low cost process to initiate a claim. Be sure to name both the dealer who sold you the bike, and the maker.
These cases depend greatly on simple stuff, like whether you are the original buyer, so make sure all those facts are marshaled and you have supporting evidence (the receipt). Once the warranty is established, then the frame and crack speak for themselves, and the burden shifts to the maker to show, that it's some kind of owner issue, ie. post not in far enough, stunt riding, etc.
The practical reality is that a large number of manufacturers do not defend these cases, and once you show that you mean business, they'll come to the table and work something our with you.
The rules and costs vary by state and local jurisdiction, but it's always a relatively simple, low cost process to initiate a claim. Be sure to name both the dealer who sold you the bike, and the maker.
These cases depend greatly on simple stuff, like whether you are the original buyer, so make sure all those facts are marshaled and you have supporting evidence (the receipt). Once the warranty is established, then the frame and crack speak for themselves, and the burden shifts to the maker to show, that it's some kind of owner issue, ie. post not in far enough, stunt riding, etc.
The practical reality is that a large number of manufacturers do not defend these cases, and once you show that you mean business, they'll come to the table and work something our with you.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
12-09-15, 10:22 PM
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O
FB,
Excellent response with detailed information as usual!
I quickly learned about tying up boats and hurricane storms. When they came everyone added extra lines. I did as well and the extra lines were without a plan. Someone finally told me to match up the added lines in pairs in identical lengths so that when there was stress, two lines equally shared it.
This exact type of failure isn't at all rare. It's caused by unmatched flex properties between the post and frame.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
Excellent response with detailed information as usual!
I quickly learned about tying up boats and hurricane storms. When they came everyone added extra lines. I did as well and the extra lines were without a plan. Someone finally told me to match up the added lines in pairs in identical lengths so that when there was stress, two lines equally shared it.
12-10-15, 04:40 AM
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It may be the person in charge of warranty claims is out right now. I know I'm sick so people can't contact me at work.
If you eventually don't get satisfaction, you could file a case in small claims court if you're willing to pay the court costs if you don't win. You don't need to involve lawyers.
If you eventually don't get satisfaction, you could file a case in small claims court if you're willing to pay the court costs if you don't win. You don't need to involve lawyers.
12-10-15, 07:52 AM
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This exact type of failure isn't at all rare. It's caused by unmatched flex properties between the post and frame.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
Makers like to claim that it broke because the post didn't extend deep enough (ideal is 1.5+ diameters below the top tube). If so, the seat tube mast above the weld is taking the full load, and your weight pushing the post backward eventually fatigues and breaks the tube at the weld. If this is actually the case, then it might be your fault.
But it gets interesting, because the identical failure can happen even if the post extends well below the top tube. The issue is that the post can be more flexible than the seat tube mast. In that case, the flexing post doesn't contribute it's predicted share to the structure, and the mast is overloaded almost as much as if the post were too short. The phenomenon of ineffective load sharing is well documented in the field of seamanship, where boats break loose because lines fail totally, with those of the stiffest construction failing first, and others following in sequence, until the boat is completely free of it's moorings.
12-10-15, 09:48 AM
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Unless they respond with a clear explanation why this isn't a warranty, consider going to small claims court.
The rules and costs vary by state and local jurisdiction, but it's always a relatively simple, low cost process to initiate a claim. Be sure to name both the dealer who sold you the bike, and the maker.
These cases depend greatly on simple stuff, like whether you are the original buyer, so make sure all those facts are marshaled and you have supporting evidence (the receipt). Once the warranty is established, then the frame and crack speak for themselves, and the burden shifts to the maker to show, that it's some kind of owner issue, ie. post not in far enough, stunt riding, etc.
The practical reality is that a large number of manufacturers do not defend these cases, and once you show that you mean business, they'll come to the table and work something our with you.
The rules and costs vary by state and local jurisdiction, but it's always a relatively simple, low cost process to initiate a claim. Be sure to name both the dealer who sold you the bike, and the maker.
These cases depend greatly on simple stuff, like whether you are the original buyer, so make sure all those facts are marshaled and you have supporting evidence (the receipt). Once the warranty is established, then the frame and crack speak for themselves, and the burden shifts to the maker to show, that it's some kind of owner issue, ie. post not in far enough, stunt riding, etc.
The practical reality is that a large number of manufacturers do not defend these cases, and once you show that you mean business, they'll come to the table and work something our with you.
12-10-15, 12:46 PM
#13
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I might contact Advance Sports in Philly. They own Fuji, SE, Breezer and Kestrel (as well as Oval Components) and they might be able to help out. I would happily give you the contact of their rep but alas I do not have it handy and may not have it at home and the place I worked that sold AS brands in closed. Fuji was certainly slow with warranty stuff but they always got it handled.
12-10-15, 05:09 PM
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Send them a registered letter, return receipt requested, to their corporate office including a precise description, photos, copies of receipts, statements from the dealer, and whatever else you have to make the case. Then they won't be able to deny having the info.
After that ... emails, phone calls, etc until you get fed up and send another registered letter suggesting that they are in default and in a precarious legal position.
After that ... emails, phone calls, etc until you get fed up and send another registered letter suggesting that they are in default and in a precarious legal position.
This...and include a copy to the (your) State Attorney Generals Office, Consumer Protection Division.
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12-10-15, 05:14 PM
#15
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bought new? still have the sales receipt to prove it ?
NB: 'wear and tear' may not qualify as a defect in materials and workmanship .
Consult further with the dealer you bought it from.
NB: 'wear and tear' may not qualify as a defect in materials and workmanship .
Consult further with the dealer you bought it from.
12-10-15, 05:32 PM
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Your LBS seems cooperative and that's a plus. I would encourage them to stay on top of things. I have found that a letter ...that is a hand written, old school, snail mail letter to the President of the company documenting all your correspondence and the names of those you or the LBS contacted, can work wonders. If nothing happens, then I would look into a lawsuit. This is probably a small claims court action. There are jurisdiction issues but it's possible that in your state that because they have an authorized dealer in your area that you would be able to file. I would wait a liitle longer before going all out on the internet. It's an effective strategy, but remember you are accountable for what you post, so accuracy and documentation are prudent measures.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
12-10-15, 05:37 PM
#17
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Unwritten Stipulation: Had you not noticed the bad weld, and continued riding the bike, it would have snapped in half coming off the Manhattan Bridge, you would have d-i-e-d, and the warranty would have been true to it's word...
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